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The definite N4 Comments, Suggestions, Ideas, wishlist's and Bugs that need fixing thread

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. fari

    fari CRISTASOL, EL LIQUIDO DE LOS DIOSES

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    McMurrough is too good now and cameronians are too boring. They dont have an own trait like the other doggos. Now that McDog got berserk, and being a former 2nd cameronian, maybe...
     
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  2. SpectralOwl

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    On the topic of the Mimetism-6(Fire Sensitive) issue, it would probably be easier to just add Mimetism as a whole to the Fire Sensitive list. It never did make sense to me that moving like a Spetznaz made you as hard to hit as a a target outside good weapons range whilst on fire.
     
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  3. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Either way.

    I like the difference between Mimmetism, Surprise and Suppressive*. Sure they all impose the same mechanical penalty but achieve it in different ways. Making Mimmetism Fire-Sensitive, Suprise need a marker state and Suppressive only apply to FTFs gives each unique but easy to understand limitations.

    * the 'hidden` trait that gives both Suppression and Full Auto their -3; which is why they don't stack.
     
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  4. Mob of Blondes

    Mob of Blondes Well-Known Member

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    There is no "whilst on fire", fire stops or unit dies. Otherwise burnt should provide a close combat weapon with fire ammo. *wink*

    If you mean clothes are destroyed and nude provides no camo, then Baggage should provide free "repairs" (just as it provide reloads for some weapons). *wink*
     
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Just saying, but all other CH skills get downgraded to Mimetism -3 when they get burnt, so folding ODD into the CH category would make for consistency enough that adding "fire-sensitive" should not be necessary on unit profiles.
     
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  6. L2590

    L2590 Active Member

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    Yes, this is a great summary of what my long-winded rambling was getting at - clarifying and simplifying even rare special rules is better than removing them.

    Additionally: following this discussion of special rules that are just "standard rule but also..." I hope we see more rules rewritten/added that do this. For example, many posters have maligned the Kriza Borac for being a bit too strong thanks to Full Auto 2. Although this rule is simple, in a recent game a friend of mine remarked that it was unintuative that it didn't apply to Suppression Fire. This led to a discussion about whether a viable nerf the KB without just removing FA2 could be to simply make it that FA2 gives you a better SF (B4, a +3 MOD at close range or a -6 penalty to the opponent all got batted around). It becomes more niche but FA1 will make sure it's still strong in the active phase as well. Personally I don't feel very strongly on this issue as I think KB could be balanced out with a simple points increase but this does make the 360 visor variant more interesting and is an interesting idea I felt worth sharing at least.
     
  7. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    So buried in one of my posts above I kinda answer why FA doesn't stack with Suppressive Fire: Full Auto applies the same -3 MOD as the Suppressive Fire state. This isn't clear the N3 text of the rule, which is why it has that unintuitive exception.

    But for N4 you can clean it up a lot by:

    1. Replacing FA2 with "BS Burst +1, Suppressive -3“ skills on the basic profile
    2. Stating that the "Suppressive Fire (state)" grants Troopers in that state the "Suppressive -3" skill
    3. Make it a basic rule that multiple instances of the same skill don't stack

    I don't actually think that FA2 as a skill is unbalanced (I dislike it in Nomads, but in MAF it fits well). Honestly I think KBs show that CB overvalues 360 visors.
     
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  8. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    Full auto is a dumb rule with a dumb name. Who isn't firing their HMGs in full auto?

    The skill that should replace it should be that the model can enter Suppression fire state as a short movement skill. Everything else deleted.

    Rules that allow a gun to shoot higher than it's Burst Value (other than twin weapons) are dumb.
     
    #1848 the huanglong, Feb 21, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2020
  9. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    Trigger control?
     
  10. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    How does trigger control make a gun shoot faster. Holding a trigger is the most basic action there is. Keeping on target is ballistic skill, we already have a stat for that, it's called Ballistic Skill.
     
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  11. Del S

    Del S Tunguskaball

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    Rapid Fire? RPM? Enhanced ROF? Boolet Hose?
     
  12. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    Then there is something different about the weapon, not the user.
     
  13. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Given that the user is in Heavy Armour, I've always understood it to be modifications to the armour that allows better stability at a higher ROF. So all their weapons are modified to take that into account.

    The name is meh, sure. But that's just the OTT naming conventions coming through.
     
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  14. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    Most military are trained to not pull back the trigger and blaze away. So the guns do have a higher rate of fire, it's just not normally employed.
     
  15. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    So the special skill is de-training or the absence of training?

    Cries in Yanhuo.

    Not to mention a skill that is two levels don't relate to each other at all. If only it gave stealth and courage and it could be the worst skill ever written without a table.
     
  16. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    YH Armour is optimised to carry heavier weapons at their standard ROF. It's a subtle distinction, but important. They get hit by the fact that AP is expensive, but often irrelevant.

    My preferred solution for this disparity is to add a 0.5 SWC tax onto Krizas (replacing various 0.5 SWC taxes that exist on MI or support profiles ie. dropping Meteors to 0.5 SWC) while simultaneously making ARM (and consequently AP) more desirable.
     
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  17. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    *sigh* Your assertion is that one fires fully automatic at their maximum output at all times.

    Full Auto implies a profligate use of ammunition, perhaps because the model carries far more than typical and they don't need to conserve ammunition in the same way. But hey, carry on.
     
  18. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    Do you actually believe it's a skill to make a machinegun shoot faster? Fully automatic just means a gun keeps firing when the trigger is held down. If the weapon is fully automatic, it will fire at its "maximum output" when the trigger is held.

    If it is a modification or something to the trooper it should be called such, be equipment not a skill, and not a stupid skill name that everyone with an automatic weapon should have.

    The skill description mentions forcing maximum fire rate, which is either a modification or incredibly stupid. It mentions without compromising accuracy, however there is no trade off between rate of fire and accuracy in INFINITY in the infinity Mechanics. Indeed other troopers without the skill can fire a weapon at plus 1B (maximum fire rate lol) just by being in a fireteam, without a penalty to accuracy.
     
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  19. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    There's lots of skills in Infinity that aren't really skills (see Non-hackable as an example). That's because 'skill' is jargon not the plane English meaning.

    Being able to effectively use the maximum rate of fire of multiple weapons is a combination of skill, equipment and access to sufficient ammunition. It's much more than just holding down the trigger. In game terms describing that as 'a skill' is just a reasonable as describing it as anything else.

    It's also worth noting that if Full Auto was Equipment it could be Scavenged.

    The reason it's named "Full Auto" is similar to the reason this was a thing: its not accurate but a rather an fanboi-ish OTT name for something. [​IMG]

    Re: Fireteams. I've always read that +1B as things like other team members adding fire, carrying spare ammunition (so you can be more profligate) or assisting you in other minor ways so you can dedicate more effort to firing.
     
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  20. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    As the rule only exists on HI platforms they would have the ability to carry more ammunition, and hold the weapon far more stable so as to maintain a little more accuracy on longer bursts.
     
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