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Yu Jing in N4

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. Sedral

    Sedral Jīnshān Task Force Officier

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    Yeah that's what I meant when I wrote that IA is harder to play, it has a ridiculously high skill floor: the only way to overcome most of the sectorial's issues is through precise list building and deployement (or luck, my speciality). And the ceiling is barely higher than that, as you put it IA doesn't have an exotic toolbox to play with. Once you're deployed it's mostly just run and gun, unless you're playing a hulang that is.

    And there are still people getting good results with IA so it's not a lost cause I guess?
     
  2. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    @Zewrath
    NCO+Daoying Lt L2 being the subjectively best choice for the job make him a lot more affordable than he looks.
    A KB is usually a main Assault piece fighting head first into AROs. He is sporting a HMG and can fight from the DZ tho.
    The Mowang isn't supposed to go up against linked MLs, you'll need someone else for the job.
    Combination of Spitfire/Red Fury Rangebands and Multiterrain on a close range Data Tracker capable Profile ends up doing different things.
    You'll still have a Haidao MSV2 MSR, Zuying Haris HMG or Hsien in Vanilla on top of the Mowang. He's pretty much a dedicated Group 2 gunner with NCO allowing efficient offensive performance with 3-5 Regular Orders.
     
  3. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    @Teslarod
    The 2 extra orders sounds good on paper I guess, but when you consider that they’ll be pretty much eaten by the Mowang moving into range, due his range bands, then it’s a tough sell for me, compared to the Hac Tao that starts in perfect rangeband and starts gunning from the word go, with a better gun, better BS and better Mods. He even retains the Lt. order if you cuck the Lt. from the start and you have first turn, so order-wise the difference is negligible.

    Besides, the Daoying Hacker + Mowang will clock in at 81 points, while the HMG Hac Tao XO + Zhanshi Lt. Will set you back 80 points.
    I mean, sure they don’t do the exact same thing, but if you’re looking at it from the perspective of wanting a gunfighter then I don’t see what a Mowang brings me.
    Arguably, he just really only compliments what is an amazing Lt. Profile of the Daoying and I don’t think anyone would talk much about him, if Lt.2 wasn’t a thing, but that speaks more about t he Daoying, than it does the Mowang.

    Again, if you like the Mowang, more power to ya, I just don’t see the big appeal, but then again I might biased by the fact that, when I switch from ISS to vanilla, it’s to use Tiger Soldiers, Guilangs and Hac Tao.
     
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  4. Steppenwolf

    Steppenwolf Member

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    To me IA feels really brittle, where mistakes or lost gambles make you fold a lot faster than in vanilla or ISS, which is natural for low model count lists, but IA also doesn't really have any defensive tech to burn up attacking orders or truly obnoxious stats to absorb attacks on individual models. Add to this a very small midfield presence and you get a army in which once the momentum is lost, it is extremely difficult to regain.
     
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  5. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately, unless you forfeit your hidden deployment and start with the Hac Tao in marker state on the table, he does not get to use that Lt. Order. CB's change to Executive Order was an awful one. It wasn't even a remotely dominant strategy either.

    One of the best things about the Hac Tao is that he can pop up anywhere in your deployment zone, and if your opponent expects the gap in your list, they have to figure out where. IA's kit is already predictable as it is, so if you're spending around 70 points for this guy, I can't really endorse dropping one of his best features while also highlighting who your Lt will be.
     
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  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Mowang is good. Not great like the Kriza, but also not something that's oddly fragile and of limited use like the Yan Huo. Well worth its points and a highly competent solo piece, but a solo piece that you kind of was expecting to have a Haris in the sectorial.

    I'm also kind of thinking of IA as being high skill floor in the way of that it's very hard for a newbie to make a bad list and low skill ceiling as in it's as hard for a veteran to make a great list. Or, the performance for a newbie is going to be high while it's not going to improve greatly for an experienced player compared to several other factions.
    Most of all, I think this is because of predictable skirmisher style units and lack of variety of skirmisher style units, because that's where most of the elegant play in Infinity happens.

    --

    My hope for N4 is that Shang-Ji will be given a drastically different role, Zhanshi will be redesigned slightly as well as get a Dire Foes character, and that Hulang will be re-evaluated to have smoke, marker state or both, Mowang to gain a Haris profile, and for Hac Tao to gain AVA 2. This is actually a lot more modest than it may first seem - the Shang-Ji thing I actually think has already been locked, Zhanshi kind of needs something small to diverge from Moderators other than just being more expensive, a Dire Foes character based on Zhanshi is long overdue, the Hulang hopefully shows up in their data as being terrible and Hac Tao AVA 2 is probably going to happen for Huang Di, which leaves Mowang Haris as the only real wishlisting.

    However, the most impactful thing N4 could do would be SWC weapons for Zhencha.

    If they want to address the Dahshat-related problem they'd need to go ham on the IA characters. I'm talking FAT2 on Qiang, MSV2 instead of AMK on Krit, and maybe even need to make another character with hugely divergent kit from Zuyong.
    Or make Weibing be Wildcard - a cheap, 0 SWC, sensor and button pusher as doggo would actually spice things up for IA fireteams.
     
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  7. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    This is where it sits for me as well, after quite a bit of time playing it - that it's a competent piece relative to its points cost. With the Red Fury Mowang weighing in at a very affordable 1SWC 52pts, it's either a little cheaper or a lot cheaper than many of its more powerful contemporaries, so the performance gap is forgiven by the extra elements you're able to afford thanks to the discount.

    (Not to mention, even being in the comparison ballpark with models like the Kriza and Hac Tao is pretty august company.)
     
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  8. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Dude, please.
    I literally said the Mowang is a dedicated number 2.
    That would mean you'll bring him AFTER you have a Hac Tao (or Hsien) for group 1. The actual competition for that slot would be the Su Jian or Dao Fei(?) Not quite sure on that.
    In IA you'll already have the Zhanshi Core and the Daoying so he can play second fiddle to a Zuyong Haris. If I wanted to run a Hac Tao I'd drop IA and restart building the list in Vanilla to begin with.

    For Vanilla I can see the Mowang making the cut thanks to the +1(2) Order (Daoying isn't a requirement after all) as well as the better FTF on average (Sujian has BS14 but not in Mobility Form and lacks Mimetism) on top of Shock. Overall I'd definitely prefer the Hsien + Sujian 1,2 combo to anything else, but that's mostly personal preference.
     
  9. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Except that's just how you think it works and not really how it works?

    Having both a Hac Tao and a Mowang + Daoying in the same list just an awful list if you want to push even one button. Between the obligatory 8 point remotes, Kuang Shi's + controller + engineer, you have already spent around 270-280 points and that's with no skirmisher to speak of and 5 regular orders. It is DOABLE but his combat group is one or two orders away from being starved and suddenly he competes for orders and even Lt. orders, if you also want the obligatory Rui Shi buff.

    What he actually is, is the the wingman of a Su Jian/Dao Fei or something in the same price category.
     
  10. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    What you're quoting is literally doing what you're describing
     
  11. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    The Mowang also makes a good cut-price chonky anchor in a list that wants to do something a bit more experimental.
     
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  12. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    In which case, I dislike the idea of doing because you lose your hidden deployment.
     
  13. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Doesn't matter much if you go first and hold him in reserve anyway, not to me at least, but now we're talking different playstyles and I can't, of course, begrudge you for disliking any play style that doesn't suit your personal style.
     
  14. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    Really interested to see if CB will help the Yan Huo in N4 or if they are just left to slowly fade away. Now that the Gamma Unit is a thing, our big boi seems a bit outclassed, despite having access to rather unique weapon loadouts.

    NWI would be pretty nifty to have, just to give them an additional layer of protection. How would you go about it?
     
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  15. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    Full Auto HRMC, like god intended.

    In seriousness it's hard to say, and sort of depend on how the game changes around them. Changes to crits might change the value of both big guns and high armour, for example (for better or for worse). I think you could potentially justify Dogged on them, although more offensively oriented skills would fit their background (their armour isn't built for protection as much as to carry their weapons, hence no more than dogged rather than NWI like the Mowang).

    If you wanted to go completely off the chain you could give them a skill that removes the restriction on declaring only a single BS attack in a turn. Good luck to the playtesters who'd need to weight that hot mess.
     
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  16. SpectralOwl

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    Keep it to one attack, but full burst on every target in line of sight. Won't help against quality mod-stacking AROs, but massed chaff like Warbands relying on getting Smoke out or multiple Daylami Panzerfausts are screwed, not to mention being able to advance with impunity instead of slicing the pie against everything. It'd let the Hac Tao and others keep the edge against quality and in terms of safety, but give the Yan Huo a niche as a very efficient way of annhilating defenses that rely on stacked AROs.
     
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  17. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    I'm hoping the solution lies in the potential removal of nested skills in N4. Full auto LV1 would be crazy on a HRMC, but LV2 alone would be fitting. If these two were unrelated skills, CB could be way more flexible in creating specific unit concepts.
     
  18. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    With a new edition around to open up possibilities, it wouldn't be that hard.
    Swap Full Auto L1 and L2. You now have Full Auto as a BS MOD that's better than Mimetism and always works.
    Give that to the Yan Huo - done. The Omega wouldn't mind inflicting a MOD either.

    What's the argument there? Hac Tao/Hsien + Sujian/Mowang is pretty much the cost of an Avatar/Marut/Cutter.
    Are we arguing you can't fit the superheavy TAGs into Infinity lists? Is the Sujian always the heaviest piece you run in a lists?
    The Mowang isn't married to the Daoying and why would he. You could easily just run 2-3 Zhanshi make one of them the Lt and end up with the same or bigger Order pool in group 2.
    Don't see how an Engineer is a requirement with 2 solo HI. Hac Tao is safe in your DZ while the Mowang is probably gonna be out of range a lot and cares a little less about isolation thanks to NCO. Same for the Rui Shi, it's a good piece but also want's a Hacker to buff it and ends up a rather big inverstment. You can always skip the Rui Shi and replace the Hac Tao with a Hsien to get a MSV2 in there.
     
  19. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    I wish this wasn't the last sentence, now I can't do the "Let me stop you right there"-meme. :laughing:

    1) No? That's a non-sequitor, because you're ignoring list synergies, support requirement and versatility. 2)Not even sure how you can infer that, when I've stated multiple times that I prefer the Hac Tao?

    I very much disagree, you're basically meme'ing if you don't use the Daoying with the Mowang. Having mulitple Zhanshi's in a vanilla list is already a red flag and if you're fine with a single Lt. order, then you might as well use the Dao Fei Lt. Spitfire, start in better rangebands and be better protected via a marker state.

    Because he can do other things..? xD
    You're looking at 4-5 REM's in a normal Vanilla YJ list and a servant can easily reach the mid line, where the Rui Shi often is. This isn't to speak of the utility a normal Engineer brings, I don't understand the opposition to an Engineer, at all. Even in an army with literally no REM's or HI's, a cheap Engineer are very ubiquitous.

    Anyways, this is just poking fun. I fully respect that you have another approach to list building.
     
  20. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom

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    Literally Yan Huo got a really shitty seat on IA. I love the model though, Mowang and Hac outshines him too much even inside the same house :<
     
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