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Can I target an enemy model with smoke grenades?

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by jackfrost, Feb 22, 2018.

  1. jackfrost

    jackfrost Active Member

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    So smoke ammunition says it does not REQUIRE a target. But I wanted to know if I could target a model with it?

    If I can, can I target a model with msv2 and thus force a face to face roll that has no interaction with special dodge, but is simply a bs attack vs another bs attack?
     
  2. HarlequinOfDeath

    HarlequinOfDeath Tha Taskmastaaa
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    Using this ammunition is a special dodge, it would be always a FtF roll.

    If the enemy has MSV2 it will be normal rolls though.
     
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  3. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    You can target an enemy trooper, but MSV2 is still going to make this two Normal Rolls because all Smoke ammunition does is block LoF.

    The only time targeting a trooper would have an effect is if the enemy trooper is in Targeted state to get +3/to ignore Speculative Fire MODs.
     
  4. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Only when used to block the LoF of the opposing trooper
     
  5. HarlequinOfDeath

    HarlequinOfDeath Tha Taskmastaaa
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    Since he wants to target the enemy trooper it would be. ;)
     
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  6. Wolf

    Wolf https://youtube.com/@StudioWatchwolf

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    Regarding Face to Face or Normal rolls more generally, is there a handy lookup table somewhere that would give this sort of information? (Or some other similarly useful resource, perhaps).

    It's a regular issue in our games that we find ourselves struggling to apply definitive criteria for whether something is FtF or Normal.
     
  7. boquepasha

    boquepasha ALEPH is love, ALEPH is life, ALEPH is your friend
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    The core thing of this is... If you're at the good range to throw a smoke grenade at your enemy... why not just shoot it with a pistol, shotgun, or any other kind of weapon which will certainly force a FtF roll? It's neither useful nor order-economy wise to throw a smoke grenade at a MSV2 trooper.
     
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  8. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Just being specific ;)
     
  9. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    If both troopers are affecting each other, or each other's action, it's a Face to Face Roll.

    There are then a small number of exceptions which are specifically called out in their own rules, for example Smoke not working against MSV2, Dodge not helping against Comms Attacks and Reset not working against non-Comms Attacks.
     
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  10. Wolf

    Wolf https://youtube.com/@StudioWatchwolf

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    ... we say exactly this to one another when trying to determine if situations are Face to Face or not, but it does seem a rather subjective criterion.

    For example, 'Unit A is trying to activate a beacon; does Unit B affect their performance in that activation?". I'd presume it would because being shot at would sure affect my ability to activate a beacon, but that's very much a subjective judgement dependent on individual speculation about concentration and training. Others could - rightly or wrongly, argue that another way; which is no help at all.

    Yes, this is more helpful, thanks. But is there no objective standard, or perhaps just a short list of "Interactions that are Normal Rolls"?
     
  11. boquepasha

    boquepasha ALEPH is love, ALEPH is life, ALEPH is your friend
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    Quick Answer: No, they don't affect each other.
    Long Answer: Unit A is interacting with a console (the target is the console itself), while Unit B is reacting to Unit A activating the console (the target is Unit A). Being the case that one's action does not interact with the other reaction (only if Unit A targets Unit B and Unit B targets Unit A) this is resolved as Normal rolls.

    There are a few exceptions, but most of them go this way, which realistically is a bit akward, but by the game's logic makes sense.
     
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  12. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    BOTH player's actions need to affect the other. Activating a Beacon doesn't affect the other player or their action in any way, so it can't be a Face to Face Roll.
     
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  13. Wolf

    Wolf https://youtube.com/@StudioWatchwolf

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    That's clearer, thank you.

    For anyone else (re)reading this stuff, the critical clause about affecting the outcome of the other doesn't appear until the 'IMPORTANT' section:

    "IMPORTANT! For actions to be resolved with a Face to Face Roll, both troops must affect each other directly. If either action does not affect the outcome of the other, use Normal Rolls instead." [emphasis changed]
     
    #13 Wolf, Feb 22, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2018
  14. jackfrost

    jackfrost Active Member

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    see I thought the reason smoke didn't affect msv2 models was because special dodge kicked in when it blocked los, but I"m actually hitting the guy with the grenade. I'm not putting it in front of him, I"m throwing the grenade at him.

    so I'm not trying to block his LOS with the smoke, I'm throwing the grenade at his head. do weapons need to be lethal or something to force a face to face roll? again I'm not trying to activate special dodge, I"m trying to force a face to face by using a BS weapon and targeting an enemy model with it. I don't understand how special dodge means that my BS weapon only works in this new way?

    I"m not saying I'm right, but I'm asking you to help me understand what's going on here. thank you.
     
  15. jackfrost

    jackfrost Active Member

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    the rules state that the special dodge action allows you to avoid attacks even if you target the ground. this seems like a rule that exists in addition to a normal weapon.

    if i shoot you with a grenade launcher and win the ftf roll I win and I'm fine. if the grenade launcher uses smoke special ammunition I don't see how its not the exact same situation. the special dodge rules allow me to do something EXTRA which is firing at the ground and still creating a FTF roll, but if I don't chose to do that then Im failing to understand how my gun has lost the property of being a bs weapon that I am attacking my target with in a FTF roll.

    even the MSV2 entry states :
    • A trooper equipped with this piece of Equipment ignores the Dodge effect of Smoke Special Ammunition.
    it only ignores the dodge effect, which is the effect created when you fire at the ground and block LOS, it does not then ignore ATTACKS FROM WEAPONS USING SMOKE AMMUNITION.
     
  16. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    How is throwing a smoke grenade "affecting" the other model?

    The type of weapon is explicitly tied to the question of affecting another model. It's not a face to face because you're both declaring vs attack. It's a face to face because your weapon changes their state, ie from alive to dead.
     
  17. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    You don't have any option about using the Special Dodge Trait, it's the sole effect of Smoke ammo in the Order in which it's thrown.
     
  18. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    It would also move the height of the blast focus for the purposes of trying to get the smoke to flow over terrain. For example throw smoke at a model on a roof, to get the smoke to fall behind the parapet.

    Side question, could you throw it at a friendly trooper?
     
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