thats not the point of that statement really, the point is Id play vs this list, and give it my best, and if I lose Im going to learn from that rather than complain that the list is broken, or unfair or exploits mechanics of that game that we agreed to when we agreed to play. And Im not going to complain about my list either, perhaps I will have taken the wrong tools, or used the troops I had incorrectly. But Im not going to complain that my troops are crap or undervpowered or need buffed. Thats what It's not your list. It's you! It's not their list. It's you! Means
Only one thing about hordes... We have Wallace I remember making a 4 groups list with galwegians plus a cateran and a Cameronian per group.
TTS is great. @Miralad plays on there quite a bit, if you're looking for an opponent (and someone who can give you tips on ease of use). I'm still getting the hang of it, but would be down for a game sometime in March. I've played against this sort of list by proxy before, using Tyranid hormagaunts as proxies (given in the dawn of N3). With 3-4 Regular orders in each group, each group kills at least two or three opposing models. The attrition on the CA side is high, but eventually they drown the opponent in bodies. I was playing ISS with a couple of TR drones, a Hsien, and plenty of Kuang Shi, and still got ground down. We weren't playing under time pressure, but that game took us at least 4 hours. I also forgot to put smoke/White Noise in the list I posted above, which is part of making this kind of horde suck to play against. Spending one of your group's Regular orders on sowing smoke/Eclipse/whatever in the open gaps tends to put a big damper on incoming AROs. The good thing is that it speeds up ARO determination. The bad thing is 12+ Hungries (or even worse Taigha) getting to their intended targets. Most of these models have an alternate movement route like Climbing Plus, making the usual channeling into firelanes harder to set up. We also tried something similar with a tide of Hungries long-table style on a 6x4 table to simulate the old Beachhead mission in the N2 book, and that was more balanced. On a normal 4x4 you're in deep shiz. Another horde like CHA would be a fun thing to run against this type of list for a casual game. It's also going to take a LONG time. Bring beer. If you had a 2-hour time limit, probably better to just declare GG after one turn. More importantly/to the point: this kind of horde list in a 2-hour game would make even a second turn highly unlikely Hordes do in fact break the game if you're playing inside a 2-hour time limit. Within that single or maybe two turns, with Baggage on the Ikadrons raising their army points back up by 50 and mostly 4-7 point models dying, a horde like this would probably win any game based on Army Points killed. Again, smoke and White Noise. And Taighas don't really care much about mines or even flamethrowers. Even Hungries have PH14. Again, smoke and White Noise. I didn't put them in the initial example, but left the points open for them. You might have what, 2-3 direct-fire table-control units in most tourney lists max, plus a few mines? Two order groups from this list could block off lines of fire and sweep out the mines, leaving the other two groups to charge your troops and pull down at least 5-6 wounds through attrition, minimum. Taighas in particular make this really nasty, we didn't even have those when I tried something like this out. I can imagine a CHA horde at 30+ points would be even worse because of the sheer number of smoke-chuckers around. As for scoring: Good luck getting there in the single turn, max 2 turns, that you will have against this list. What hasn't reached your lines will be in the midfield with chain-rifles, CC, or even just a bunch of Dogged bodies walling off the objective. Even TO FOs aren't going to get to an objective surrounded by Gakis, or worse yet Highlanders who can drop smoke. I mean, it sounds like a really fun battle to try, if you're not at a tourney. In a tourney setting, anyone bringing this is going to completely sandbag each game. They wouldn't win the tourney but neither would any of their opponents, and every one would hate TFG.
That's not what's being claimed here. In a normal casual game, this could be fun and possibly balanced by the end of the third turn, especially if you know it's coming. Under a 2-hour time limit in a tournament setting, a horde with 30+ orders will likely break the game. Meaning it will prevent the opponent getting to use their half of the time allotted, and will limit the game to 2 or less turns. There was zero claim that any troops are crap or need to be buffed. No need to strawman.
Here's a better version with smoke and White Noise plus Pitchers added. Still using your other three groups to provide smoke/White Noise cover for the gaps, then use your command tokens on the Taighas to rush whatever needs to die first, which will be pretty inevitable. Then the remaining 10-20 orders to get a few Pretas into chainrifle range, flood the midfield with bodies, or whatever else. Fully Operational Battle Station ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 4 4 5 KERR-NAU (UPGRADE: White Noise) Plasma Rifle + Pitcher, D-Charges / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27) OZNAT Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 18) PRETA Chain Rifle / AP CCW. (0 | 7) PRETA Chain Rifle / AP CCW. (0 | 7) PRETA Chain Rifle / AP CCW. (0 | 7) PRETA Chain Rifle / AP CCW. (0 | 7) R-DRONE Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) R-DRONE Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) GROUP 2 2 8 8 TAIGHA Chain-colt / AP + Shock CCW. (0 | 5) TAIGHA Chain-colt / AP + Shock CCW. (0 | 5) TAIGHA Chain-colt / AP + Shock CCW. (0 | 5) TAIGHA Chain-colt / AP + Shock CCW. (0 | 5) PRETA Chain Rifle / AP CCW. (0 | 7) PRETA Chain Rifle / AP CCW. (0 | 7) PRETA Chain Rifle / AP CCW. (0 | 7) PRETA Chain Rifle / AP CCW. (0 | 7) IKADRON (Baggage, Repeater) 2 Light Flamethrowers, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 9) IKADRON (Baggage, Repeater) 2 Light Flamethrowers, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 9) GROUP 3 3 7 8 OZNAT Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 18) GAKI AP CCW. (0 | 4) GAKI AP CCW. (0 | 4) GAKI AP CCW. (0 | 4) PRETA Chain Rifle / AP CCW. (0 | 7) PRETA Chain Rifle / AP CCW. (0 | 7) PRETA Chain Rifle / AP CCW. (0 | 7) PRETA Chain Rifle / AP CCW. (0 | 7) ÍMETRON . (0 | 4) ÍMETRON . (0 | 4) GROUP 4 2 6 6 Bit Hacker (UPGRADE: Expel) Submachine Gun + Pitcher, Deployable Repeater + KISS! / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 19) KISS! Adhesive Launcher / Electric Pulse. (- | 4) MENTOR Lieutenant Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 22) GAKI AP CCW. (0 | 4) GAKI AP CCW. (0 | 4) PRETA Chain Rifle / AP CCW. (0 | 7) PRETA Chain Rifle / AP CCW. (0 | 7) PRETA Chain Rifle / AP CCW. (0 | 7) PRETA Chain Rifle / AP CCW. (0 | 7) 1.5 SWC | 298 Points Open in Infinity Army
I don't really understand your point @daboarder So you are saying, you are fine playing anything in a tournament context, but a tournament rule saying that you are limited to X models is too restrictive Also going by your arguments, it almost feel like you would be fine if the game were to be played within one hour instead of two. Rules are rules, set new rules, you'll follow them. Going back to @Savnock a high order count means you will have time spent : declaring order, declaring ARO, comparing attributes, making mental calculation, rolling dice, factoring the outcome to the game plan. It has a cost time. However you are trying to put it. Also note that you are not the average player. You have years of experience, aimed to win IP19. You are a hardcore player (in a hardcore game I'll give you that) who is just trying to sound the most hardcore it can gets. Tournaments are not organised, played and meant to be Kraken level. IP does not restrict attendees for failing to achieve a certain ELO threshold. So you will have people playing there, on their first year and some of them must have had less than 10 games of Infinity.
I'm not sure how to begin grappling with the decision to put oznat LGLs in a list that needed good impetuous smoke coverage.
I say this as an aficionado of high order count armies in general and combined army warbands in specific, as a player for whom tactical window means I need to cut models from an Avatar list, as a player whom has taken triple combat group lists to multiple events, as a player who is basically the specific problem everyone is railing against here: @Savnock, your hungry spam list is a hilarious meme but you really need to go back to the drawing board on this one.
I'm not a CA player, nor a CHA player. Those who are could surely make this list even nastier. I understand that you could have Daturazi in there for even less points. That's not the point. The point is, 30+ orders makes playing a full game in 2 hours very unlikely, which is not cool in a tournament setting, even if "it's technically legal by the rules dude" is a thing someone might argue. And that's probably part of why TW is a thing, and some TOs choose to use it on occasion.
Just so that I understand, do you mean the lists is 'game breaking' in the sense that it is too powerful in ITS, or that it breaks the game in terms of causing too much time to be used?
Actually I could use this clarification as well. I read this as a power conversation but maybe it isn't.
So hypothetically if a person was confident that they could play this list in good time, finishing under the two hour mark in every game of an event, you wouldn't foresee any problem with them taking it in ITS?
I am sorry i have to fundamentally disagree that its impossible or even difficult to play you list or any list approaching 30 orders in less than 2 hours. Mostly because I've done it personally on the regular. And other I know of have as well. Many others.... Shit can and have seen in done in an hour half or less.
Shrug if the tournament is LI or Tac Window ill account for that. If a TO makes some arbitrary decision on their own that 20+orders is the big bad too far. Ill seriously consider why id bother attending a non-ITS house rule prone affair. As to round limit, if the tournie is 1 hour ill bring a list I know i can play in that time. If thats a 28 order CHA list that aims ti kill 2/3rds of the opponents list in the first turn so that it can play to time the so be it, alternatively ill bring reactive PanO. What i dont like is members of a community complaining that my 28 orders is inherently unfair. Its like arguing that msv2 linked snipers are unfair and should be banned. Or forcing aros should be banned or that more than 2 hackers is so obviously unfair vs HI lists and should be banned. The goalposts move from person to person and lines will be drawn in different locations if we buck the rules as presented which are at least determined by an unbiased 3rd party.
@daboarder:I absolutely agree. When I first started, I thought a TR bot was a struggle to deal with. Then it was a linked sniper, followed by ODD. I recently got stomped by a really good player using Achilles. Yeah, I lost. But now I can deal with all of those above threats. I got better. If a player can use a 30+ list and do all of their side of the game in an hour or less, good on them. Yes, the other player has to make ARO’s, which means the 30+ player needs to play faster. Part of the trade off. You can’t think through each order as much.
Again: It's not just that player who has to deal with all those orders inside his hour of time. It is also the opponent who has to ARO to all of those. Smoke forces at least limit the number of opposing AROs, but you're still going to be causing way more of them than a normal 15-or-so-order list. "I can play faster than 99% of other players so git gud" is not a good way to deal with this. It's fine for casual games. In a tourney, best to bring a chess clock and abide by it if you're going to field a force like that, and you should include the opponent's AROs in your time (which is standard for chess clock tourneys). Tangentially, I'm now going to give a better version of that horde list a go just for fun in the near future, in some very-casual games. Gonna need a lot of Hormagaunts and Termagants for the Hungries and something else for the Taigha (need some proxies for my SEF anyways).
As a person who regularly brought Imperial Guard lists with 200 - 300+ models, I very much agree that the onus is on the horde player finishes on time and usually horde players learns how to play very fast, so I reject the stigma of many orders taking longer time. In a tournament last year in Germany, I actually played record slow because I brought 2 LI lists, lol.
@Zewrath 40K is different, because there's no real ARO mechanic. In Infinity, your -opponent- has to react to your horde within your allotted time as well, with way less information about the situation than the active player. Let's say that the 30-order horde player is really good and manages to only increase their time 10 1.3 x what 15 orders requires, instead of 2 x. Their opponent is still likely to require 2 x the time to react. Might even be more, because the number of factors to consider is way, way higher.
Also, while you might be skilled at declaring AROs and moving things quickly during the opponent's turn, the increased number of reactions by a horde will also inflate the opponent's turn. If you're good that might be by a small factor, maybe 1.25 or something, but a shit-ton of reactive dodges, lurking Gakis blowing up on things, etc. are still going to take time.
I regularly play CHA with at least two full combat groups. I learned the army with 27 models in a German tournament with chess clocks and one hour per player. I finished all my games within my allotted time, and my opponents also had ample time on their clocks at the end of the game. I sincerely do not see how large order pools can be a problem for someone who knows their list and how to play it. For me, it is all about having a plan for each unit from the start and then executing that plan. The same goes for every list that requires a lot of fiddling, such as camospam, or for that matter 10 order lists that rely extensively on minute angular positioning to survive into the second turn. Everything can take time if you let it.
