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New Kusanagi Incoming...

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by Ignovus, Nov 19, 2019.

  1. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    The 4-2 Move isn't their problem: in a link it's far less limiting than you'd think. But I agree they're too expensive for what you get in the current meta.

    On top of that there's link restrictions, so running the core means that usually you also need a Custodier (unless you're really confident of not facing MSV) for 6 x 1W 30pt+ models. And the inability of Moiras to join the Haris limits it to Kusanagi, who's great, but means Moiras are basically core or nothing.

    Their principal issue is that they're all across the board. Give them defined roles and specialise them for those roles. Drop the Moiras down to being a pure shooty (CC13, WIP13), the Healers to being more CC/specialist (so ARM3, WIP14 Mirandas), and the Custodier to be more like Mary (cheaper weapons + Hacking gear). This defines them as a link that works together with each element having dedicated roles. Sure the won't be great in Vanilla, but that's fine.

    The cost of Multi Rifles aren't really a problem. A 'normal' Moira core doesn't really have more than 1 or 2 (MSR, HMG/Kusanagi, Mulit+LGL, Healer BSG, Combi+Emitter/Kusanagi/Multi AHD). This adds useful ammo diversity to the link, so isn't really a tax.

    Also, remove or significantly decrease the amount of Shock in the game. A Moira list is as reliant or more so on Moiras to survive as a Varuna is on the Kamau, but they don't get the perk of free Shock Immunity. This more than anything limits their resilience and makes any points spend on ARM pointless.
     
  2. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Same goes for spamable DTW platforms. They have all the weakness of Myrmidons but with none of the upsides.
     
    #42 Tourniquet, Feb 14, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
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  3. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Spammable DTWs are less of a problem if they don't appear on AD or other deep strikers.

    The core is designed to be deployed at range with a solid skirmish screen between it and threats, it works well that way if the mission supports it. Moiras have the range that Myrms don't to enable this. It's partly why Bravery didn't really help them.

    The Haris is surprisingly robust if you play with it carefully and ensure that they're supported. DTWs have quite low odds of success when opposed by a Dodge. It's why I don't really want to see the PH buffs most Observance troops get go: one option is to drop the PH but add Hyperdynamics (which I'm pretty sure works out cheaper), but that kinda feels like a cop out. Although it's arguably reasonable given all the other profile optimisation that's happened recently.

    OTOH shit like Imposters really fuck with Moiras.

    Aside: the reason why Custodiers having no role in Vanilla is a travesty is because they're so much cooler than all the other Hackers in Nomads... they just aren't great mechanically.
     
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  4. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Custodiers are just so cool in concept but such a mess in practice.

    You pay an exorbitant cost for abilities (White Noise and Cybermask) that turn off her primary defence she needs to survive, which is pretty RPSy anyway.

    They all get Haris but doesn't really work very well because they're all and Hackers in fireteams have to all use the same program (even if they don't have it because they are different types of hackers) since 'Hack' isn't a catch all skill like BS Attack. And why the heck would you want a Haris of just very expensive hackers, let alone all the same type.

    For those privileges you cost a lot, die easily and move slowly.

    All reverends suffer some of these issues and aren't used often as a result, but Custodiers get it the worst.

    The Kusanagi, Healer, Custodier Haris is OK because (like inaneimp says) each member has a distinct job they can actually do so it's not so dreadfully inefficient for points compared to most other links, which don't have their 'filler' members costing 30+ pts. If all their links had interchangeable members with distinct roles like that and maybe drop the anti synergies and fragility a bit, they'd get play because they're cool.
     
    #44 Hachiman Taro, Feb 14, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
  5. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Oh I forgot: mixed Multiterrain and not-Multiterrain annoys the bejesus out of me. It screws with the concept of them being an Observance team designed to work together. Just give them all Zero-G for free. This would allow you to use them to avoid mission based terrain zones (Rescue) and Dazers, but makes them still feel limited by being MI.

    What everyone complains about with Mixed links is differently costed units in the same link and complexity in understanding how they work. You can easily avoid these issues with Moiras/Healers/Custodiers/Kusanagi by ensuring that they all have the same movement skills, all have ODD and then just allowing them all to form an Observance Core/Haris. Essentially they all become variations of the same troop type, with both profile and equipment variations.
     
  6. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

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    Yeah it's a sectoral that's badly showing its age Vs the new stuff. Won't be long before we have a nice rebalance and modernise across the board
     
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  7. Jason839

    Jason839 Well-Known Member

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    I hope they don’t do that and come up with more creative solutions. It’s pretty damn boring when everyone has the same options in every sectorial.
     
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  8. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    I actually really liked some of the solutions they gave CJC (by some I really mean 'mainly linkable Tsyklons'). I just think they applied them to the wrong Core. The Alg Core was fine and the new Wildcard options gave some cool additional options as well. Whereas giving Wildcats the Special Core would have done so much more from a faction character POV. OTOH I do agree that allowing MB to join the Alg core was a cop out.

    I'm hoping that the future direction for CJC brings Wildcats to the fore. Wildcats typify the CJC identity.

    Bakunin kind of has a different problem. First it's a faction of 3 distinct parts: Moderator Corps, Observance and Regular NMF troops. This limits the amount you can use their MI as the glue to keep the sectoral together. Second, their HI core is one of the strongest in the game: so any changes need to account for that.

    I think any modernisation of Bakunin needs to lean into those things, keeping those identities separate. It's why I think a general buff to MI, some profile optimisation, revising Hacking and a freely available Observance Haris/Core is probably all that's needed for the Obersvance part. Whereas the Moderator Corps part really just needs the ability to add backbone to Moderator Fireteams and something to lift Taskmasters to being as efficient as they are cool. The NMF part only really needs Prowlers to be fixed and it works beautifully.

    This keeps Bakunin's identity distinct from the other Nomad sectorials.
     
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  9. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    The cop out was having REMS count as the HI that go in the LI core, kinda defeats the purpose of the HI when the cheaper and better option can supplant them.
     
  10. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    The Alg + MB core still works. But yes, I think they did it wrong. And that's because they just went 'we'll do what we did with Orcs'. This, below, would have worked a lot better and wouldn't have had the issues you identify.

    So the purpose is to make MB fielded in Fireteams and to highlight Nomad faction character as a heavy Combat REM user. Remember that the core of Nomads combat forces are MI + REMs. Their LI are all police / home defence.

    1. Don't touch the Alg (+ Wildcards) Core, it's fine as the cheap core with SWC weapons for high order count builds
    2. Tsyklons count as Wildcats for Fireteam purposes
    3. Up to 3 Wildcats may join a MB Special Core
    4. Lupe, Dak and Jazz are Wildcards

    You end up with very similar MB/Tsyklon/Wildcard cores to what you have now. You also get MB + Wildcat cores that feel very Nomadic by allowing MB to act as pointmen for the squishier `cats without the absurd min/Max optimising of HI + Line LI.

    You also solve the Wildcats SWC problem at a stroke: it becomes a trade off between cheap and SWC heavy or expensive and SWC light. That's interesting from a list building POV.

    This is probably the most optimised core under that construct, and it's good (arguably very good), but it's hardly stronger than some other options floating around. Most importantly thought, it screams CJC Combat Team.

    Jurisdictional Command of Corregidor──────────────────────────────────────────────────[​IMG]5 WILDCAT (Number 2) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20) WILDCAT Engineer Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23) MOBILE BRIGADA Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 40) DAKTARI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) TSYKLON Spitfire, Pitcher / Electric Pulse. (1 | 31) 3 SWC | 128 PointsOpen in Infinity Army
     
    #50 inane.imp, Feb 17, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2020
  11. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    I really like the 'let the REM take the bullets' ethos though, which makes so much sense on a lot of levels, especially for light infantry - so I like the Tsyklon in the Alg core. I'd rather it was just done more directly I guess (Just Tsyklon counts as Alguacile for fireteams) because it's not super elegant the way it is.

    Maybe then the Lunokhod could go in the Wildcats (maybe even getting FD1 to do so) since they are a CCB assault team. Probably need something else to make them compete, maybe just / even a break on their heavy weapons SWC.

    Then the Brigada I feel like they could just be like the other Nomad HI - become a bit more optimised but they don't go into other fireteams. Put the Tinbot on the Hacker, give them a KHD and an Engineer. You could still put Wildcards in to save pts / add multi capacity, but they don't need REMs to go point like the others.
     
  12. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    This is where I think the distinction between the combat forces and the policing forces is important. "Let the REM take the bullets" and "let the MB go through the door first" are perfect for the hardened veterans of Polyvalent who have had years of gestalt training and operational experience. It's less perfect for Algs.

    Let's be honest, I'm perfectly happy with Algs being 'a bit shit as a Fireteam because they're lacking in options' relative to LI Fireteams in other factions or Fireteams in CJC. They'd still have a role as the cheap Fireteam with actual guns.

    It's why everyone is largely OK with Moderators being bad. They don't actually need to be good for BJC to work. They could do with a little more spine to make Mod Core + Observance/Grrls Haris more effective, but it honestly doesn't need much: a JK-esque Dire Foe (with Riotstopper + a late game 'sweeper' weapon) and Clockmakers able to join the core would probably be sufficient (particularly if we got a Bakunin only LSG, ADHL/AK Clockmaker to make use of AVA2).
     
  13. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    I am not OK with this, they're terrible! In fact it's why I don't really play BJC anymore. A sectorial with one great core and two bad ones gets old pretty quick.

    If Moderator core was actually OK then that + Observance Haris would be a cool list type, for sure. As would mod core + grrls haris. Or mod core + Lizard, or ... you get the idea.... a decent mod core would make the sectorial way more interesting in a decent number of forms
     
  14. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Oh, I agree with that. I just don't think they need to be pushed to good: merely not awful for the investment.

    Which is part of the issue with their MSRs, they're way too much of an investment for what you get from them.
     
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  15. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Yeah I agree.

    Still think if I'm a basic dude with a gun whether me or the robot stands out and gets shot at is a fairly easy tactical decision, more so even if I'm not a hard bitten combat vet. And 'tactically supporting' the long range one a safe distance from any door that need kicking seems a wise life choice.

    The actual hard ass door kickers probably want the one with the flamethrower, tho. And you'd think Brigada could look after themselves. If the rules reflected that better, would be cool - though I'd much rather they updated BJC in preference if it's a choice. CJC work pretty decently now.
     
  16. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    While that's true it's one thing to put a Reaktion out to provide covering fire and another to include a Combat REM in the Fireteam.

    And while I think Brigada can look after themselves, I don't think you should see them in the density to see them operating as pure MB Fireteams. Whereas as the pointman on a Boarding Party is epic!

    I'd actually lean into the archetype (Wildcats as the premier Nomad Boarding Party) even more: lose Multiterrain on Wildcats in favour of more widespread Zero-G on anything they can link with.
     
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  17. Jason839

    Jason839 Well-Known Member

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    thats actually pretty funny. im like the exact opposite of your experience. After doing corregidor and tunguska for a while, Ive come back to bakunin and Im winning more now than ever before. I love the moderators, and almost never take riot grrls.
     
  18. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    I sit in the middle. I find that Mods reliably die in a stiff breeze. BUT if you assume that's going to happen, you can make the core work to power other elements of the list. But it does mean that quite often I'll happily drop some Mods and just play without a full core.
     
  19. Jason839

    Jason839 Well-Known Member

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    This reminds me of a time where I was trying to get a local nomad player to give Bakunin a shot and he did not want to because of the perceived weakness of the moderators and the Moiras. I kinda realized then that a lot of people tend to play different armies the same way instead of embracing the differences in playstyle different armies encourage. They see moderators and Moiras as weak when really they aren’t. They are just different from the units people are used to and are being played the wrong way.

    Like I treat my moderators as a bs 13, 5 wound 45 pt model that has a spitfire and a multi sniper and comes with a battle ravaged state. I don’t think of it as a link team because it’s really not like other fireteams and it won’t work in the same roles. I’m not going to leave it in aro because it will die, and I won’t try to take out top tier shooters because they will outshoot me. I’m going to carefully move it around the board when I can and bully people in fights I know I can win by shooting 5 dice with my spitfire. I can see how people think fireteam and expect it to get all this work done, but that’s not how the Bakunin fireteam is designed. It’s not even a support fireteam. It’s a cheap fireteam meant to be expendable and to bring a super cheap spitfire and 5 orders in an effective package. It’s not going to win the game on its own but it will be one more thing your opponent has to keep an eye on.
     
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  20. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Why not a model that comes with 5 Spitfires?

    I constantly try to make BJC work for me but I quickly get frustrated at list building and end up realizing that the list is better off being vanilla or StarCo, unlike the other two Nomad sectorials.
     
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