Is CHA completely unviable in TW?

Doing a little bit of math you have to spend an average of 30 points per model in Limited Insertion.
That's possible but limits your choices by a lot for several armies, especially CHA where your expensive troops cap out in the 30s. And instead of not wanting to run a Warcor, you don't want to use your AVA Total Regular 6point Orders.

15 models means average of 20 points, which is a lot less harsh on limiting CHA's strengths.

Tactical Window is still an incision on Faction balance and alters the Meta around the new set of Limitations. So does Recon or whatever. None of them contributes to game balance and is mostly just a different way to play the game.

 

I normally play CHA with Tactical Window already so it's not that bad.

Tournament: Pro Libertate
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GROUP 1 6 2
UXÍA McNEILL (Covert Action) (CH: Limited Camouflage, Superior Infiltration, Specialist Operative) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges, Smoke Grenades / 2 Assault Pistols, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 27)
CATERAN T2 Sniper Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 24)
WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)
HIGHLANDER GREY AP HMG, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 34)
ISOBEL McGREGOR T2 Rifle, Flash Pulse, D-Charges, E/Mauler / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 26)
VOLUNTEER Paramedic (Medikit) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)

GROUP 2 4 3 3
WALLACE Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, EXP CCW. (0 | 35)
McMURROUGH 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Templar CCW (AP + DA). (0 | 32)
SCOT (2nd Battalion) CH: Camouflage Molotok / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 30)
SCOT (2nd Battalion) CH: Camouflage Missile Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 31)
S.A.S. (Forward Observer) Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 24)
HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)

6 SWC | 300 Points

Open in Infinity Army

 

Given you can readily run a Tac Window CHA list with 20 orders, I dont think they are hurting for taking bigger guns occasionally no.

for a first draft


Caledonian Highlander Army
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GROUP 1 8 2 2
WALLACE Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, EXP CCW. (0 | 35)
HIGHLANDER GREY AP HMG, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 34)
VOLUNTEER Paramedic (Medikit) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
VOLUNTEER Paramedic (Medikit) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
'FIRSTSTRIKE' DONN T2 Rifle, Grenade / Heavy Pistol, AP CC Weapon, T2 CC Weapon. (0 | 35)
SCOT (2nd Battalion) CH: Camouflage Missile Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 31)
HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
GROUP 2 1 5 3
McMURROUGH 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Templar CCW (AP + DA). (0 | 32)
UXÍA McNEILL (Covert Action) (CH: Limited Camouflage, Superior Infiltration, Specialist Operative) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges, Smoke Grenades / 2 Assault Pistols, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 27)
HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
CATERAN T2 Sniper Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 24)
CATERAN T2 Sniper Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 24)
5 SWC | 298 Points
Open in Infinity Army

 

TW is there to help people play faster. Less slots, less thinking. People bringing 20 slots and forcing the game to end by turn 2 is very frustrating.

 

Those people just need to L2P. 20 Order lists don't need to take that long, especially when they tend to be hyper aggression lists where an entire combat group plays itself.

 

I have played against CHA in tactical window and I gotta say they are more than viable. My opponent ran something akin to the list daboarder posted above - 2 caterans, McMurrough, Grey+Willie+volunteers, Uxia etc - except with more SAS specialists.

In fact, two CHA players perfomed extremely well and got into top 5 of one of our TW events.

 

Yes, but what is to be done? default loss? I tend to play a very resilient LI list and I need that turn3 where I still have 7 orders to spare which is close to a 1/4 of my total order spending in the game compared to armies like CHA where there last turn is likely to only see 1/6th of their order spending for the entire game.

 

In a perfect world if someone is incapable of efficiently playing a 20 order list in the time constraints of a tournament then they are considerate enough to everyone else at the event and don't bring such a list.

In reality though, because people are actually inconsiderate stupid asshats, the answer on that is gonna depend on the meta and the size of the events as to how the TO deals with that. I'm lucky enough that in local events people are very good about their time and simply being given a regular heads up on time remaining is enough to keep everything running relatively smoothly.

 

Chess clocks are the answer to slow mass-army players.

I've been playing with them at lots of events here in Europe, and they're great for preventing horde players from screwing everyone else (and I say this as a seriously slow player myself). I hated them at first, but they're really great once you get used to it. Also good for training yourself for an event.

As for TW, 15 orders is hardly a distortion of the game anymore than 20+-order armies of chainrifle smoke hordes are in the first place. It's a different playstyle, and it doesn't shit on specific forces, unless those forces were crutching on stretching the order economy of the game in the first place. CHA have got plenty of tools to kick ass at 15 orders.

 

you tell them to shape up and play a list they can handle to time, if they cant then the next tournie they will be uninvited.

As someone thats played 28 order CHA in some very tight time tournies there is no excuse for players to slow play.

That being said, I have often found it is just as likely to be the player playing Vs the high order count to blue screen and suffer from decision paralysis leading to time loss.

What you dont do is punish and/or vilify high order count players in general

 

Yeah. I played a friend using a LI IA list. He’d take 45min for his 10 Order turn and I’d use 15 with my 20 Order USARF list. He and I worked hard on getting his speed up and now he’s fine. It took telling him, “Look, you have to make A decision.” And honestly, in a tournament I would be willing to tell my opponent to make a decision and move on. It’s just as easy to slow play AROs... And so far I haven’t run into in a tournament. Partly because I play pretty quick. But that’s also why there are TOs. If your opponents speed is an issue, bring in the TO.

 

If it includes Impetuous Orders getting to 28 is pretty easy with Galwegians and Cameronians.

 

You're not wrong. People can panic trying to deal with 10 million camo markers.

 

That's 42 orders...

 

The opponent being unable to deal with how to maneuver when you have 30 troops that can ARO (or against which they have to ARO) is not a mark of their inability. Even if you play fast with such a list (and I'll believe that when I see it), a 28-order list crams a shit-ton of effort onto the other player's mental plate as well.

Infinity was designed to run well with 10-20 troops, and 20 is pushing it. Huge lists raise the number of interactions exponentially.

Bringing 30-model armies to an ITS is not cool. Tactical Window as a flat no-go policy against that is definitely understandable for TOs and players who don't want to deal with ridiculous hordes. It definitely shouldn't be the default, but having the option to toss in when you think it might be needed (Satellite tourney, tourney with tight time restrictions, expecting lots of new-ish players, etc.) is a very good thing.

File under: chess clocks, case for.

 

Note that Daboarder was talking about a 28 order list, which can still be 20 models or fewer due to the amount of Impetuous Orders available to CHA.

Impetuous Orders also get used quickly as there's not much decision making involved.

I've been playing a long time but can't really get to tournaments without flying, in the few I've attended I've had no problem sticking to a 2 hour slot with 20-25 order VanAriadna lists (18-20 models plus Impetuous).

 

as others have pointed out, im talking 20 or less troops mate.

As to your claims to what is cool and uncool, really the kind of "vilification" I was talking about, its not an exploit and players playing it should not be made to feel unwelcome for their choices provided they are appropriate to time

 

@daboarder , remember, a 30-order list doesn't just mean that the player bringing it doubles the usual amount of decisions and declarations, their opponent also has to make way more AROs. That kind of compression is what I'm saying is simply not cool.

There is an acceptable amount of that inherent to the game, but armies with over, say, 25 orders blow that curve. Every single decision becomes a split-second decision, there's way more pressure, and mistakes get magnified. Again, -some- of that is fine, but having it be the whole game is not. If you do play to Turn 3, you're both going to be talking like auctioneers.

Someone showing up with one of those armies to a 2-hour-rounds tourney almost universally means you're not getting past Turn 2, and that sucks. I've rarely seen anyone run a 30-order list (nevermind a 30-model list with even more orders) to Turn 3 within a single hour of playing time.

Outside of a tourney, great. Take an extra hour, have a few beers. In a tourney, it's not cool.