Super Jump Impetuous

That's what he said.

 

The broad conclusion is that the Impetuous rules don't really account for Superjump and that the cleanest reading of RAW is as you describe.

Edit: for clarity, there is disagreement about 'what then?'

 

This is massive as changing it would make a fing huge difference!

 

What's the fuss about?
Super Jump states that for models having that skill Jump = Short Movement Skill. Same goes for climbing plus - Climb = Short Move Skill.
Impetuous and Extremely Impetuous allows Move + smth. It seems kinda obvious to me =) And I don't play McMurrough, just in case.

 

Problem is that "MOVE" and "SHORT MOVEMENT SKILL" are not identical/same. If Impetous chart said that it is possible to use "short movement skill + something" then there would be no problem with using Super-jump. That's why that not so obvious to some people (including me).

 

I thought the broad conclusion was just the opposite, so... maybe there isn't a broad conclusion.

RAW: McM wants to charge at Angus. Between them, 8" away from McM, there's a building. If McM didn't have superjump, the shortest path to Angus would be to go around the building. So McM would run 6" diagonally towards the corner of the building planning to go around. Then he could throw smoke to try to avoid getting hit by the sniper who's shooting at him from farther away.

But since McM has super-jump, he has to whole order jump 10" onto the top of the building and eat a free shot from the sniper.

I thought the consensus was that the above is indeed the answer, RAW. The question was whether RAW is the correct reading in this case, since even @ijw says that nobody plays it that way (but has unfortunately not been clear on whether everyone has been playing it wrong).

But reading some of the more recent posts, perhaps there isn't a consensus on what the RAW answer is, either (although I think @ijw has been clear that the RAW answer is as above).

This desperately needs a clear ruling.

 

Short move skill isn't the same as MOVE though...

 

That's kinda correct.

It's actually that they're permitted to Move less than their maximum move if they hit terrain that forces them to Jump/Climb to continue moving towards the closest enemy.

Practically this will mean that Move + Moving twice for ~20" will be often faster than Move+ Move, Jumping for <20". The result is that troops will often path along routes that don't require Jump/Climb.

This is as true for Mcmurder jumping over a wall as it is for a Kuang Shi jumping off a building.

"A trooper using an Impetuous Order can move a distance shorter than the maximum only if he reaches base contact with an enemy, or if he enters an area of Special Terrain that impairs his Movement or forces him to declare Jump or Climb in order to keep moving."

 

Ok, so there's no consensus on two questions:

(1) what do the rules say RAW?
(2) Is the RAW reading the correct interpretation of the rules in this case?

There's no point in continuing to debate (1), because we're clearly not going to reach a consensus, and it may not matter anyway depending on the answer to (2).

Please please please @ijw , we would be very grateful for a ruling! I think you've ruled on (1) (others may disagree), but you definitely haven't ruled on (2). You've observed that most people don't play it RAW, but you haven't said whether they're correct.

 

I was fairly certain that we all agree that RAW does not permit Jump + BS Attack/CC Attack/Move. I don't know anyone who understands the issue who disagrees. So I think that there is a clear consensus on 1.

WRT 2 I agree that there isn't and won't be a consensus.

The point about under what circumstances McMurder is forced to declare Jump, whether a Short Movement Skill Jump or an Entire Order skill Jump, is an entirely separate point, and has previously been discussed to death. (A: when it is necessary to fulfil his obligation to continue moving towards his target)

@Arkhos94 probably worth adding this to the list.

Q. Is a trooper with Super Jump permitted to replace the Short Movement Skill "Move" with the Short Movement Skill "Jump" as part of a legal combination of skills to declare during an Impetuous Order?

A. No. A model with Superjump is restricted to the Legal Combination of Skills described in the Extremely Impetuous rules.
B. Yes.

 

Is this the only reason? Based on the "mandatory Move" part of the rule, I'd agree, but later on it says this: "Jump or Climb skills must be used if that would shorten the route."

So what about this... there is a chasm 4" away for McMurder and the chasm is also 4" across. The nearest enemy is across the chasm. Can he Move to the edge of the chasm and stop? Or must he full order SJ across is? My reading is the second, which (if my mental image of scenery isn't failing me) means there are far more instances where McMurder is actually forced to (full-order) jump than just Move + whatever.

I guess I was also one of the few who seemed to think that Impetuous Troopers that were less than their first MOV away from a wall on a building would jump off of it (not just if they were at the edge), so...

 

Is that not the case?

 

I just remember people vehemently opposed to any kind of jumping off of a building and I thought the consensus was that they could Move unless they started at the edge of the roof. I could be remembering wrong, however.

 

The only way I can see preventing that is starting your turn prone.

It seems to me that "The nearest enemy figure is the one that can be reached in the least number of Orders, even if that figure is not in LoF. Jump or Climb skills must be used if that would shorten the route." makes jumping off a building is pretty often forced. (provided moving to the edge and taking the ladder is not faster)

From a lot of responses I've seen on Impetuous, it seems as though people really try their best to make sure to argue in favour of Impetuous being a upside.

Impetuous is supposed to be a skill that is a downside (it's counted as a massive discount in the point formula) and is supposed to force you to make potentially poor decisions.

I would actually love to see Impetuous be even more restrictive to diminish the strength of impetuous warbands. This could be an alternative to battling the order spam without trying to impose order caps with Limited Insertion and Tactical Window.

 

Every trooper in the game is forced to declare an Entire Order Jump if that would shorten the route.

I don't see why having Super Jump would allow you to bypass that restriction.

That being said, if Jump + Move would be the same distance than Entire Order Jump, I think it would be reasonable to have the rule reworded and allow it to be substituted. And in which case, the second part could be substituted to cheat the Impetuous order and declare a shot. (Just like normal troopers can do)

 

You make "shortest route" sound like a measurement in inches, but isn't a measurement in Orders?
This difference can often give you some (more) options.

Impetuous Troopers during their Impetuous Order are the only ones that can Jump and Climb from Prone, without spending a Move skill to stand up first.

 

Can you cite where this is allowed?

- - - - -

For good measure, here is where it says you can't.

http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Prone
"While Prone, troopers cannot Jump or Climb."