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Dire Foes 9

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by Solar, Nov 17, 2019.

  1. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Way to make the Agema cry!
     
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  2. Del S

    Del S Tunguskaball

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    Not sure I like that...

    ...I love it.
     
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  3. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    I totally said first linked MSV2 ML. You just didn't apply the lemon juice ;)
     
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  4. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Pretty much the only time I will say that a list is built incorrectly is when this guy isn't present with out a real good excuse as to why, especially if someone is complaining about defence. I'd also tell them to throw a lunokhod in for good measure but people tend to forget that it exists and think that the fast panda heckler and the PM are the only non fireteam defensive tools.

    Play hyper aggressive, go first force feed them to your opponent do enough damage to make it worth it so that losing them doesn't hurt as much. Also if they want to assassinate the PM by all means let them it means they are going to spend the entire turn doing that ass opposed to playing the mission, dismantling your fireteams or taking down your obvious LT.

    Like with SP, you hunt them, they cant mob you if they're dead.

    the best AROs in the game waste your opponents orders, time and slows down everything they want to do, all while costing you virtually nothing. Which TJC can do well enough through the use of camo fake outs (seriously any marker in the FD zone normally gets a wide berth because they dont want to get jammed so forcing them to move around a 17" bubble is a wonderful way to waste orders). cheap flash pulses from the usual suspects and puppets, mines and the crazy koalas. and this is before you start layering on the repeater coverage for all the hackable units.

    Would it though? Even before people were packing hard counters to MSV2 fireteams, leaving an MSV2 piece out on ARO was a laughably stupid proposition in my experience, as the warbands will just advance forward behind a building out of LOF so you can't shoot them, or they spend orders stopping the one or two that would run out in front of the MSV gun to not do so. then they call up a big gun (normally a linked HMG) and blast the your visor off the table leaving you down the order and the significant SWC and points investment.

    Your better of using cheaper guns and contesting the smoke throws and hope to nail them in the forehead. The only real exception to this is if the visor is dirt cheap like say the Kamau or the Agema.
     
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  5. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Going back a ways: 12pt ABH Akryalat is only legal as part of Miranda's Hunting Party. It'd be great on its own, but alas.

    I was always surprised that TJC got the Hunting Party Duo not the CSU Duo. CSU would have been interesting to me, and fit the fluff.

    Re: Puppets. I don't get the 'can't do anything' of the Puppetmaster. They'd still be squishy if they had the same ARO options as the Inactive Proxy, but it wouldn't feel helpless.

    I do think that if you're stuck going second with them vs an opponent who can assassinate them, then you lose nothing by being relatively aggressive with the Puppets AROs. The Krakot Spec Fire play discussed earlier, for instance, should absolutely require your opponent burning through 2STR Hyperdynamics first.

    I should try them with only 1 Puppet. I mainly play them in Vanilla where having a Haris is worth the investment, if only for 'cool' factors.

    By and large I think TJC actually has all the tools it needs. It's just they're ever so slightly restricted in ways that undermine their effectiveness.

    * No Interventor in Sec links.
    * Puppetmaster being completely non-responsive.
    * AVA2 Transductors.
    * Overvalued ARM/BTS costs on Lunokhod (they cost 4pts over a Lu Duan, almost entirely due to ARM/BTS).
    * Hunting Party not really having a role.
    * Tsyklons having nothing to really draw them over HM.
    * Grenzer Haris tax (seriously, Grenzer getting Haris on a shit profile, paying 0.5 SWC for it and still paying full whack - or more - in SWC for the gun).

    You can build around these (see low pick rate of Hunting Party, Tsyklons and non-Sec linked Grenzers), or just accept that despite the weakness they still work because nothing else fills that hole the way they do (Interventors, Lunokhods). But it certainly is restrictive: even our positive "well how do you make this work?" thread keeps hitting these same issues.

    My point really is that none of these things require new troops or significantly new rules. TJC just needs polishing: in reality it has very similar issues to Bakunin, and feels like it comes from a similar point in the meta.
     
    #445 inane.imp, Jan 31, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2020
  6. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Yes, it would.There's various much more nuanced scenarios, like even the prospect you could drop from reserve can change the way your opponent deploys WB (as you imply), or there's a good lateral firelane that stops them advancing unimpeded but is problematic for their HMG to get to, or even that their HMG is taking a risk taking on BS16 double burst AROs like that.

    Moreover, if you don't think it's effective to play it like that, you could not do so and take a different Grenzer profile like the spitfire or the sensor or the biovisor instead. The point is they would all have a role in different ways to different players - whereas they have not a lot now.
     
  7. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    As I told before in this thread, the problem with TJC was that it have a lot of flaws, not only warbands, but people don't see the full picture (or don't want to see it). If it were only that, then the sectorial would be OK, but people keep focusing on only denying one single problem.

    yes, hollows are good, thats the only reason there is a perception of TJC as "ok". Without them, TJC would be one of the worst sectorials at the moment (the complete year statistics say that they are not so good as the last months, jet meta changes could mean something). One of the best things this sectorial has, are HM, because they are fun to play with, thanks to all the shenanigans they bring, even if they are not enought to fill the gaps.

    PM in a closed building (if its closed, can you deploy in? until now, any TO I found allowed it, or the building is oppened before the game, or you are forced to open and close it before entering)...deppending on scenery almost not used to justify something don't seem a good option to me. And having to put extra troopers to deffend it just erases the meaning of "order efficiency" because actually you are trading order count for cost...is a big investmen, and can be wasteful if the enemy has some specific tools, and trading 20-30 points for 50, is a good trade. The same can be told about the warband problem.
     
  8. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    I think Hollows are straight up bad now because of:
    1) Dazers
    2) Noxes with zappers
    3) Dart with E/M grenades

    Any of these things on the other side mean essentially a game loss if you bring a Hollow Men list.
    Add to that the FAQ that forbids superjumping out of prone and their unique thing becomes waay less usable.

    The only reasons to play TJC over Vanilla, outside of fluff reasons are:
    1) Perseus in a core team
    2) Raoul
    3) AVA 3 of hecklers
     
  9. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    The Game doesn't need another elite MSV2 troop that can link with baseline LI. That's always been a shitty concept. Kamau should really not have gotten access to that in non Kamau Links (with maybe up to 2 Fusiliers in there).
    And I say that as a Varuna player happy to slap two of them into a list because it's just that good. Cover a second lane, use as backup assault piece, grief certain matchups pretty hard, reform a Link around it for turn 2 in case the other one gets straight up killed and of course double value for the Trauma Doc you're already paying for.
    It's a great tool but it shouldn't be an auto include over the Securitate SWC choices like the Kamau Sniper/HMG largely invalidates the Fusilier options.
    MSV2 Grenzers have the additional problem that you introduce Smoke + MSV2 to TJC and it's even in the same Link. Getting B2 Smokes on 19, DTWs, capable CC, ODD and MSV2 SWC weapons in the same Fireteam seems a bit over the top. As high tech as TJC are, not giving them MSV2s but giving them Smoke and massive mobility instead, makes them pretty distinct.
     
    #449 Teslarod, Jan 31, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2020
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  10. Janzerker

    Janzerker Well-Known Member

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    But that applies to most HIs without Hyperdinamics.

    Hollowman are really good, in excess and so are Puppetactica. Data supports it. And when ITS data shows Nomad sectorials are playing HIs more often than YuJing and PanO it's a sign there's a serious trouble in design. Moreover, with the upcoming rework to MIs and enhance of the hacking systems the Nomad faction shoud be affected in a way they will need an overhaul in N4.

    Imho both Hollowmen and Puppets should be retagged from HI to REM with 1 W + NWI. That would make them cheaper but also more glass cannon while keeping the Nomadish spirit.
     
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  11. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    yes... the entire 2019 data says that nomads are not doing so well so...nerf them? HM seem that are the only thing that make TJC a decent sectorial.

    Maybe the reason for using so much HI is because the other units are lacking. I do not see using 4 HI is so much
     
  12. Janzerker

    Janzerker Well-Known Member

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    Their HI game? for sure. It's badly designed because of the current lacking design of MIs and hacking. If those things are going to be (hopefully)solved in N4 then all Nomad MIs will probably have to be reworked, which will also affect the structure of their current sectorials and performance. As a Nomad you should be playing on average a HI, two at max, per list instead of fielding full cores on a regular basis. The most flagrant case is Puppetactica have become a crutch in Nomad generic. This just goes to show how Nomad players are abusing the tools they were given to be able to participate in Limited Insertion, but also highlights how underperforming are their MIs and that the HI given are very optimized.
     
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  13. Lucian

    Lucian Catgirl Nation

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    What's the point? Ghost would still give them 2 unconsious lvls to soak damage before nwi. Make it 0 W + NWI! Even more cheap and glass! And add some void operators while we are at it.
    Jokes aside I don't see any Nomad spirit in that. Making glass canons left and right for the sake of being cheap spam unit just feels too much like Ariadna...
     
  14. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Also -3 to Doge for Remotes.... yikes. The cointoss vs an E-Marat is bad enough.
    Going down to a 7? plsno.

    Wouldn't worry too much about Nomads being on the middle ground right now. While average performance isn't all that great, they're performing nicely at the top.
    This could be attributed to Nomads being one of the harder to use armies, thanks to having a lot of options and less straight forward choices to utilize.
    Imho you can play Nomads pretty wrong or build a list that doesn't work well within itself.

    Anecdotal evidence would be that Nomads appear to have a mix of the most dedicated players on both sides of the performance spectrum in my experience.
    On the one side there's people showing up with fluffy LI lists to every event and on the other other side we have people traveling internationally to compete with 20 Order Nomad spam.
     
    #454 Teslarod, Jan 31, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2020
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  15. Lucian

    Lucian Catgirl Nation

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    The lack of fancy postcards or arts or anything besides the 3 minis is kinda underwhelming. When did they stop putting extra stuff in dire foes?
    Kovac looks waaay better unpainted, her look reminds me of Ruby Rose a bit.
     
    #455 Lucian, Feb 4, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2020
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  16. Ceilican

    Ceilican Well-Known Member

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    (Make Hollowmen and Puppets Remotes)
    Supportware. Though, TBH, my preference is that we get some buffing supportware programs that target HI. Right now it's kind of foolish that every heavy infantry keeps their access ports open when the only positive benefit is getting a firewall.
     
  17. Snowball

    Snowball Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    But I’ve tried addressing a lot of these issues in a very tunguska way in this thread as well. So maybe in my eyes you don’t want to see the bigger picture either? Or you just want to hate on TJC because they lack warbands and it doesn’t work for your playstyle ;) I’m aware of the TJC flaws but I’ve also found ways around it that works for me *shrugs*.

    As far as taking hollow men out and making the sectoral bad, you could do the same for any faction lol. Take out Aquila and Swiss guard and NCA is bad for example.

    Dazers suck ill give you that, but everyone is suffering with them, especially against a good player that knows how to use them. But template and EM weapons have always been in the game lol. Actually a little surprised you didn’t even mention gangbusters and mad traps in o-12 since those have a way better chance at IMM-2ing HM than EM does. There are ways to counter a lot of these things that are HM weaknesses. Instead of throwing your hands up in defeat automatically whenever certain weapons or profiles are rolled against you, take a step back and ask how you can deal with it. Don’t push aggressively so hard you give your opponent easy template scores, utilize super jump to get a good bead on some of these targets. Bait impetuous with forward deployed troops away from certain things and into good firing lanes. Think outside the box :)
     
  18. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    They could just limit it to remote presence HI if they don't want to screw up things like the Swiss Guard. Or attach it to some new N4 trait.
     
  19. Ugin

    Ugin Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    I'm genuinely curious about the gaming environment you're playing. It might be true that those types of weapon/enemies are HMs demise, but does that mean they are straight up bad?
     
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  20. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

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    Yeah they're just bad against those matchups. That's why you write two lists.
     
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