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The definite N4 Comments, Suggestions, Ideas, wishlist's and Bugs that need fixing thread

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    aren't you talking about the BSG+adhesive? I have all hellcat models, and I've never seen a Combi+LSG model, or I am missing one?
     
  2. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    In N2 the Hellcat's standard loadout was combi+lsg, there was no version with just a combi.

    Then again they didn't really differentiate a combi+lsg from a combi with sculpts back then (look at old Nisse, Bagh Mari, Croc Men, etc).
     
  3. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    CJC Starter Hellcat is actually a Combi+LSG.

    Compare:[​IMG][​IMG]

    Edit: was there a BSG, ADHL profile in N2? The N3 is Combi, ADHL. Which I like, but BSG ADHL I'd love.
     
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  4. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    It was combi+LSG and ADHL
     
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  5. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    That's what I'd always thought. BSG, ADHL AD would be sweet though :)
     
  6. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    I didn't though that was a LSG, thanks for the clarification.
     
  7. LaughinGod

    LaughinGod Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    So I wrote this on their YouTube video for LVO, but wanted to repeat it here ( even tho I confused Molotok with Red Fury ). Regarding the last question Bostria answered, Molotok is actually only weapon you could easily phase out of the game. It is Ariadna specific as far as I am aware, so you could just say that model is now Spitfire ( or AP Spitfire ) or Red Fury as there are no Ariadna models with those 2 weapons.
    Another weapon can remove/consolidate is panzerfaust/flamenspeer/akrylat kannon, there are no reason to have multiple names for esentially same weapon with different ammo type. Just call it panzerfaust and put ammo type in a bracket, same as with grenade launchers for example. So Panzerfaust ( AP+EXP ) would be current version, Panzerfaust ( Fire ) - Flammenspeer, Panzerfaust ( Adhesive ) - Akrylat. This would also let you add new disposable weapons to the game by just adding variations without making up new names and confusing people. Nothing stops you from adding Panzerfaust ( Smoke ) or whatever. It will still be just 1 weapon with 1 name and 1 entry in the rulebook/wiki.
     
  8. tox

    tox SorriBarai
    Warcor

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    MULTI Panzerfaust NOW!!!!
     
  9. Del S

    Del S Tunguskaball

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    Molotoks are also bloody awful for their cost. Paying 1-2 SWC and three points for... an extra shot over an AP marksman rifle. And that SWC plus Seven points over a T2 rifle.

    It's like all the points T2 and SMGs should cost found their way into Molotoks.
     
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  10. bladerunner_35

    bladerunner_35 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe CB could make it an option to automatically succeed at pushing the button in ITS?

    Making it a long order or having a certain specialist be able to auto-succeed while the rest keeps the same rules.

    It could alleviate the frustration when you have to spend five more orders to push the button than your opponent while keeping the normal mechanic in game for those who wants to push their luck or keep their list building more flexible.
     
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  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I would like to see button pushing to be a dodge effect so that it produces a face to face roll with troopers trying to keep the objective safe.
     
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  12. Del S

    Del S Tunguskaball

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    What about if the action to button press is a short skill, the other half of the order can be move onto it or used to make the roll an f2f.

    If you spend a whole order though, no roll, auto-success, but if you're under fire, no f2f

    That way you can't just walk onto it and f2f, but if you've reached it, you can start "dodging". If the way is clear or you want to be risky you can walk on and attempt without f2f. Or if it's totally clear/you need it done, full order.
     
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  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Hmm, or simply that success for objectives only if the trooper ends the order in a non-null and non-IMM state could also work. As long as it is somewhat possible for the starting player to offer some protection vs. last order hail mary button mash.
     
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  14. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    As a newer player / graphic and UX designer with over a decade of experience, I'm really hoping for some good things in N4 as far as rules reorganization and consolidation. I've been working on some quick-reference documents for myself to supplement those I find elsewhere, and a lot of what I end up doing involves interleaving content that's spread across multiple rules and even books.

    Other users have already commented a lot about that, so instead of flogging a deceased equine, I want to mention Silhouettes. Specifically, S4, which feels really out of sequence.

    Currently we have:
    S0 - 25mm base, flat (small) (or 40mm prone model)
    S1 - 25mm base, medium
    S2 - 25mm base, large
    S3 - 40mm base, small
    S4 - 55mm base, small
    S5 - 40mm base, medium
    S6 - 40mm base, large
    S7 - 55mm base, large

    It would make way, way more sense to me and maybe to other users to move the current S4 to S6, and bump the current S5 and S6 down a number each in the sequence. That gives:

    S0 - 25mm base, flat (small) (or 40mm prone model)
    S1 - 25mm base, medium
    S2 - 25mm base, large

    S3 - 40mm base, small
    S4 - 40mm base, medium
    S5 - 40mm base, large

    S6 - 55mm base, small
    S7 - 55mm base, large

    The fact that these group up easily by increasing base size, and then within those groups by increasing height, is going to be intuitive for most people equipped with a human brain. It also reflects the fact that bigger bases = harder to manage positioning and avoid fire by correlating silhouette and increasing base size.

    I pulled out some of my models and lined them up this way as proof of concept, and I think it makes more sense, with one snag:

    It positions the smaller S4 REM models (Pangguling, etc.) in between small and large TAGs in the scale. I'm not sure if that's a problem with the idea of this scale, so much as the sizing of those models, though. The Rudra Gunbot model is bigger than the YJ S4 REM models I own, and feels a lot more like a "real S4" that could sit between a Gecko and Iguana in a lineup convincingly. By comparison, the models for the Pangguling and Rui Shi (for example) seem really dinky for S4 troops, as they're right around the same size and mass as my Yaokong S3 models. (Weren't the current S4 REMs on smaller 40mm bases at some point?)

    Edited to add:

    I can also see a case for grouping up by kind of trooper typically represented, in which case you'd get something more like this, which is still not the current order:

    S0 - 25mm markers, 25mm or 40mm prone model

    S1 - 25mm base, small infantry/micro-remote/deployable
    S2 - 25mm base, normal infantry
    S3 - 40mm base, large infantry (currently S5)

    S4
    - 40mm base, small vehicle/REM (currently S3)
    S5 - 55mm base, large vehicle/REM (currently S4)

    S6 - 40mm base, small TAG
    S7 - 55mm base, large TAG
    S8 - Maggie
     
    #1754 wes-o-matic, Feb 1, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2020
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Small note, @wes-o-matic
    S0 is variable base and I honestly think will remain such. It's only 25mm if not otherwise specified.

    That said, I like the order by footprint the most. Always felt like the current S3 and S4 would be useful for allowing TAGs to go prone.
     
  16. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    Huh, so it is. I'll have to update one of my cheat sheets.

    Post above updated to reflect this error on my part. Also, S0 being variable is...weird. All the other Silhouettes have both a base size and height, and they're fixed. It seems like it'd have been more consistent and simpler to specify Prone as "the size of the model's base only" and omitting any reference to S0?

    Thanks!
     
    #1756 wes-o-matic, Feb 1, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2020
  17. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Do remember that CB uses silly size to give a hierarchy to being able to move through friendly units:
    So any change to what volume is attributed to what attribute level should consider that as well.
     
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  18. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Agree with most of the suggestions in this video by @Vaulsc



    Too many to name individually, but I think it would be worth CB staff watching this video in full.

    Couple I don't agree with (like Impersonators getting discovered more easily) but mostly pretty nice changes that would improve the game markedly overall.

    Another one in the comments I like is that falling damage up to your first move should just result in getting automatically stunned. That would remove some exploits (like jumping REMs to wound then repair them for a classified, also prob remove that classified, in fact revise the way cards are used in general).

    Biggest one to my mind is fixing and clarifying Sixth Sense, Stealth, and ARO provoking to get normal rolls (and how those three interact), which I quite like vauls solutions for.
     
  19. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    Good point!

    There are a couple of ways to look at that. Currently the Silhouette sequence is based on the area of a Silhouette Template, and because the S4 template is 1760 mm^2 and the S5 template is 1800 mm^2, S5 troops just barely edge out S4 troops; the difference is pretty slight.

    But if you do the math by volume instead of area of a silhouette, those two are in the wrong order anyway. Ranking the current Silhouettes in order of increasing volume, rather than (height)x(width), you get:

    S1 (12271 mm^3)
    S2 (19635 mm^3)
    S3 (40212 mm^3)
    S5 (56549 mm^3)
    S6 (69115 mm^3)
    S4 (76027 mm^3)
    S7 (159181 mm^3)
    S8 (269392 mm^3)

    This is the same order I list first, which is ascending by base size and then within base size ordering by height. It also kind of makes sense in terms of internal consistency: Small remotes can stop a human or palbot, but don't slow down big infantry or small tags. Large remotes and vehicles can stop those two taller troop types, but not the full-size TAGs. You could use the above order, keep the current rule, and just get used to big-base REMs and motorcycles being able to body-block big HI and small TAGs the same way small REMs do for normal infantry and palbots.

    Or...

    Right now, big HI and up can bypass friendly REMs and motorcycles by virtue of larger Silhouette when moving. But the basic movement rules already cover vaulting obstacles, and the fact that allied troopers aren't handled the same way as obstacles (i.e. you can vault over things shorter than your Silhouette's height, but troops aren't things for this purpose unless maybe they really are) has produced some interesting discussions like "can I hood-slide 'vault' my S2 trooper over an allied REM?" According to the general movement rules, you can't move an S2 trooper through an S3 or S4, but if an allied REM is an "obstacle" you can in fact do that. (IMO it's a pretty cool idea.)

    So one solution would be to eliminate the whole "move through troopers with a smaller Silhouette" rule entirely, and just use a similar rule to drawing LoF based on Silhouette height instead of comparative S values. Something like "While moving, troopers can bypass allied models in their movement path as long as the moving trooper has a larger base size, larger Silhouette height, or both." This is how it works with the current Silhouette size order, as it happens, with the aforementioned exception that S2 troops can't bypass S3 or S4 unless you allow vaulting of allies. It also approximates how bypassing obstacles works already in the general movement rules, between "measure distance from anywhere on your base" and "vault obstacles smaller than your Silhouette height." It also works in a more open-ended way in case additional Silhouettes get added to the mix later.

    Silhouettes are still going to be needed to normalize the models in play due to figure size/pose/etc. but it's a little bit funny that the S value is used in-game for some movement rules and not others. Might as well normalize it all into comparing the actual Silhouette's size in play for movement, LoF, etc. and use the S number just to look up which Silhouette Template to grab.
     
    #1759 wes-o-matic, Feb 3, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2020
  20. bladerunner_35

    bladerunner_35 Well-Known Member

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    I’m probably in a minority here but I would like if exceptions to the rules actually felt like exceptions. I know we’re talking about cover ops between highly skilled operators but for instance Guts rolls are very rare when so many have courage. Can’t think of another example now so maybe just guts.
     
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