So tunguska is not competitive without warbands or cheaper units? I now see the error of my ways *tosses all his tunguska in the trash*
The Zondmates are Tunguska's warbands. They are only 5 points with 8-4, smoke launcher, mimetism; but they are attached to a Zondnaut. It's TJC, there are up and downsides to the high cost because of the attached unit. The warband part of that equation is cheap AF. Edit: after thinking about it some more, it's a bit like the Stalker Oznat profile. It's not quite as cheap since you're giving up the independent Impetuous + Irregular order, but it's still the warband analogue in TJC and not relatively expensive for what you get.
Well. As always, some people tend to read only a part and exaggerate it (I think its called hyperbole in english). The warband problem is just one of several problems (told in this tread, but is not related with the topic) that make TJC a bad dessigned sectorial. And I don't see it bringing as much potential and uniqueness to compensate for it (just a few decent options that everybody knows) This new character doesn't help with anything we had a problem, just replaces one of the few used options of an almost not used unit. Replacing an option with another because is cheaper and only because that (because the grenzer is more useful thanks to secondarys and the liason option) is not a good think for the sectorial IMO.
I think the difference you and I see is one of cause not effect. You see Tunguska as having distinct weaknesses and go "well that's because Nomads were limited by the fluff", whereas I see Tunguska as having distinct weaknesses "well that's because the unique fluffy things they did give us have missed the mark". I don't think Puppets are good replacements for warbands, but that's certainly what they appear to me to be designed as (in the same way as Helots and Auxilla are warband replacements). I think they were overly cute with the design, so it hasn't quite worked out that way. I think they would have worked far better as "G:Servants" with guns / their own skulls. Zondnautica fit in the same space: a warband option you have when you're not having actual warbands. But they're so expensive that you can't really have more than one in most lists, and they dropped at the same time that Core-linked MSV AROs became extremely prevalent. The result is that they're much more of an attacking option than a defensive one: which is where Tunguska suffers from lack of Warbands. FD1 Tsyklons kinda seems like a good idea to accentuate the 'REM faction' focus, but honestly it did nothing for the faction. FD1 Lunokhods OTOH would have been an interesting alternative to Hecklers. Or alternatively, Tsyklon + Lunokhod Duos would have added a cool "REM faction" team. The only point where I really go "huh?" is on two things, and even then they're so obvious that you know they were examined: 1. No Interventors in Sec links. I assume this was playtested but rejected for some reason: from a fluff POV it makes no sense to me. 2. AVA2 Transductors. This is clearly to limit peak power of the more optimal lists, but I feel just hurts the less optimal options more. And again from a fluff POV it feels so very much like a Tunguskan thing.
I thought as you time ago, but after a few years seeing how CB manages each faction, I came to that conclusion. I would agree with you if they would have given into the strong points of the lore: the most secure bank of the sphere, lots of mafia money, hi tech on par to the greatests potencies (of they cannot stole it, they can buy it), or in words of B, the infowar faction (not only cyberwar, infowar is much more than hacking). But almost none of those points were used (ironicacally, only sensors, and some remotes that they say are high tech, but much worse than similar hi tech in other places) Having weaknesses is ok if you have tools to overcome them. Having them and also being limited on your own tools isn't
I think that you underestimate how potent and advanced C+ an Superjump are. Maybe it's because of your local tables but it's one way to keep WB at pace : being too high for CC and forcing them to spend even more orders to come into Chain Rifle range. Plus HM are pretty good against a lot of WB. 2W Rem Pres and a DTW while costing around 30 points is a very good deterrent. It actually costs a lot of orders for a WB to come to you with smokes if you have covered the incoming lanes well. One of our best players (a guy who is at the same level as Karolis) said me that it's actually not order effective at all if the final orders only blow up a trooper like a HM Combi. But it is effective if you deploy poorly and don't select the tools you need to cover it if you really need to protect yourself against WB. Two Lunokhot HFT cover already a good part of your DZ. If you're planning on playing a Securitate FT, Jelena gives you a body that you'll be able to trade for a WB and that you might be able to recover during the next turn in order to negate completely all those orders your opponent spent to cripple you. I know healing isn't popular but for having run REM heavy lists, spending 4 orders in order to bring back 4 REMs that will ARO next turn is worthy. I get you don't have your usual tools to deal with your usual problems but it only means it's time for some crazy creativity.
FD1 Lunoks would have been such a good call. I have yet to use a Tsyklon; a lot competes for space at that point range and 360 visors just cost too much, CB overvalues them IMO. Yeah, this one gets me too. It would be strong on the table but not unbalanced and distinctly Tunguskan.
I have Jaguars but they're not my first line against warbands and I can almost never spare an Intruder (if I even have one) for counter-wb. I'm not saying Tunguska doesn't have a problem (I don't know) but I don't think it's required to use WB and MSV2 against them, they can find another way. Especially considering N4 might change things. On the other hand Phalanx has that cheap MSV2 that could be dedicated for it but they still have much bigger problems against WB than Correg.
Hard limits somehow make less sense when you put them next to OSS or Shasvastii simply not having any meaningful ones. On top of their distinct specials like Dazer Minelayers or Jumper L:Z being pretty awesome. Not to say everything should be the same. But there wasn't much of a reason to add another linkable Sensor over something more useful.
Posthuman cost and the Dazer size and ability to placed at deployment are my two biggest WTFs with CB's decision making process. These two stand out as aberrations in what is otherwise a pretty balanced system. I don't know how that made it through play testing, everything seem's bad when compared to them.
More than Sheskin getting 2 real wounds, FAT2 and Wildcard to enable easy B5 to go along with it at no extra cost compared to her old Profile? That's basically their equivalent Kriza Borac HMG but boy is the supporting cast around it more of a choice. From Sphinx to Nox Core, to Messer, Speculo, Noctifier, Shrouded, Caliban to just plain old CA REMs. I'm hard pressed to find something I'd avoid in Shas other then Jaith. In Tunguska it's mostly like 'okay I'll start with a Kriza HMG or A Hollowman core' and then slap something together, expecting a result that will always feel unsatisfying and full of holes. Whenever I build a list for TJC I end up in Vanilla Nomads, which are pretty great and can give the top contenders out there a good run for their money.
I guess i just don’t see the problems here that y’all are making a stink over. All I keep seeing is this grass is greener on the other side mentality and giving up when presented with a challenge. Guess it’s just easier to complain about stuff and be envious of someone else’s toy. *shrugs*
So I have been losing a lot lately and after some reflection I have decided to stop taking defensive links. I feel like the game has moved on from them and has reached the point now where if you are not doing something with your link every turn, you are at such a disadvantage. so taking this new approach, I have actually been theory crafting lists and kovacs has been making the cut. This is the list I plan on trying soon. Jurisdictional Command of Tunguska──────────────────────────────────────────────────10 HECKLER Combi Rifle, Jammer, 1 FastPanda / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23) HECKLER Combi Rifle, Jammer, 1 FastPanda / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23) SZALAMANDRA Hyper-rapid Magnetic Cannon, Heavy Flamethrower / . (2 | 90) SZALAMANDRA PILOT Contender / Pistol, Knife. () SECURITATE Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13) JELENA KOVAČ Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21) PERSEUS FTO (Fireteam: Haris) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / 2 Pistols, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 33) GRENZER Missile Launcher / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 29) SECURITATE HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 21) INTERVENTOR Hacker (Killer Device Plus UPGRADE: Lightning) Boarding Shotgun, 1 FastPanda / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20) LUNOKHOD Heavy Shotgun, Heavy Flamethrower, D-Charges, CrazyKoalas (2) / Electric Pulse. (0 | 25) 4.5 SWC | 298 PointsOpen in Infinity Army so in a list like this you have an aggressive link team. Usually you would use the grenzer to be your sensor option, however with kovacs as your sensor it opens the grenzer up to be a heavy weapons option. This coupled with Perseus for smoke and close range and the Securitate hmg for long range, gives you a very balanced and versatile offensive link. I like tags ands the szally fits nicely into the list as well, drawing the opponent away from the link and giving another big gun and specialist if needed.
Yeah, that doesn't bother me as much as it does you. There is Joan and other Leader type units that set a precedent for the discount she seems to enjoy. I've never been all that hung up on FAT2, in the active what she shoots is going to die; really doesn't matter if it's with a crit or not. There seem to be others in this thread who share your sentiments, and you're right about vanilla nomads being good. I don't think anyone's advocating that all factions are perfectly balanced, but just because you find TJC unsatisfying and full of holes doesn't mean there aren't players who feel roughly the opposite. TJC is absolutely fun to play for me. I'm doing well with it, but there is always room for more growth. I enjoy playing around the limitations set in TJC, because of the units I get to play with. I'm not envious of other faction's tools as much as I feel some units/equipment unbalance the game to the detriment of the whole system. Given the crazy spike in popularity of shas at the moment, I think we're going to see a nerf in the future. Hopefully it will be right in the Dazer, because I honestly think these things are broken right now.
Isn’t that really every faction though? Everyone has their power pieces that you just expect and already attempt to set up counters to in deployment. Aquila, Achilles, Van zant, charontid, Tarik... and even go to link teams like riot grrls, grunts, kamau, joan pain train. It’s not a problem that just plagues TJC and makes us predictable. Im sorry list building for TJC feels unsatisfying and full of holes to you. There are factions I feel the same way about as well so maybe it’s just not the sectoral for you.
Joan and Wallace get Inspiring Leadership for free (which is powerful no question but that's the Skill's fault). And get a massive discount through Frenzy. Sheskin has neither of those traits (and we know exactly what FAT2 costs from the Khawarij). So that's apples and plastic oranges as far as comparisons go ;D The FAT2 discussion has been discussed enough, Crits change and so will the Skill, it's whatever for now. Mate I play a lot of stuff doesn't matter if I play it to admit it's good or bad. I don't own any Shas for instance. It's just sad to see USARF and Morats exist in their current state next to OSS and Dashat being a thing. Has nothing to do with stuff being subjectively fun - I do enjoy playing JSA and cutting things in half with CC - but boy does this game have a big gap in between the worst and best. Even the middle field is arguably in pretty bad shape next to the top dogs. It's like the goal is chess, but next to black and white you can also pick up green, red, blue and yellow who each start with a couple pieces less. Still chess - take the king (or mission in our case) and you win. Being limited in one way or the other, even by a single pawn, is going to bite you at some point. There's the dice involved that can randomly make your pawns slay a Queen in ARO, so that's the fun part. Also makes it harder to notice that you're really missing that pawn every game.
The thing with Dazers is that they force players to pay attention to the Terrain Rules. The majority of metas are okay passing by Terrain Rules, so this puts an emphasis on multiterrain, mobility, and MOV values in a way that no other piece of equipment has ever done. I view them in a similar light to linked MSV2 snipers... Give it a year, and the meta will adapt to the point where competitive players will generate solutions versus Dazers. It's worth mentioning too that TJC operates with very similar restrictions to PanO. Nomad players simply aren't used to operating with those restrictions. You can still shoot most opponents off the table, and you do get some infowar, some Smoke, some tactical flexibility that fits the Nomad ethos well. Where I do see TJC being out of balance is in the realm of area denial and defense. I think the designers overestimated the defensive viability of the Heckler Jammer, and while that's still a good unit and a good profile, I think it's hard to find room for 2 of them to defend your DZ, while still finding the space you need to get missions done. With the high complexity and strict requirements that are present in a lot of ITS missions, having to dedicate a lot of points to those kinds of defensive options feels very restrictive. I actually have a similar problem in VIRD... By the time I buy Jammers, Kamau MSV2 and Helots, all of which are really important for basic defense and functionality of the Sectorial, I don't actually have much wiggle room left to build for the missions I'm playing. The result is that all my lists feel very same-y, and restrict my ability to innovate or experiment with different list structures. I imagine TJC feels similarly (one reason why Hollowmen are so nice is that they're quite decent at defending themselves.) By contrast, a big advantage of warband-based defense is that you can buy your 4-6 cheap chain rifles and smoke, they're useful in any mission, versus any opponent, but they still do their DZ defense job extremely well.
Not every faction needs the same solution for each problem. Helots are a great alternative tool to have instead of warbands, not every Faction needs Smoke+MSV2 to make things work. Just any workable solution and when in doubt good Order economy to brute force the problem with less optimal tools or tactics. Having "only" the Heckler Jammer and the Puppetmaster Minelayer as far as area denial goes opens a few massive holes. Heck I'd go as far and claim AVA2 Warcor could fix TJC, just for the access to warm bodies to slow down a push by a little and deny your opponent some of the unopposed firelanes to limit his choices. Every single good Sectorial has a way to fit some extra bodies into their lists. High AVA of 6-10 point Regular troops, 5-10 point Warbands or other expendable but relatively resilient Irregular troops. Even AVA3 Flashpulse REMs, AVA2 Baggage Bots and a Techbee, Libertos etc does the trick for the most part. Vanilla Armies usually have easy pickings to include something toward that end and a lot of Sectorials as well - without sacrificing on the top end. Aleph with AVA3 Netrods, Posthumans and Achilles comes to mind as the best of both worlds with hardly a downside to it. Should play more TAGs in VIRD friend :P Really changes the dynamic from 'a bunch of squishy snake Eaters playing it smart' to 'boy that's a lot of support to enable this Multi HMG'.
@Teslarod You're not wrong about TAGs. The big challenge I have here is that I routinely run into Polynikes, who is one of the best infowar-leveraging players on the planet. After having a Possessed Tikbalang skydive off a building for an auto-kill, I became extremely wary of running TAGs in events where there's a high probability of coming across him or his meta. Now that Combined Army has pitchers too, it's extremely tough to insulate a TAG from that kind of attack. Replying to your earlier point, I was shocked that TJC didn't get AVA3 flash pulse bots. That struck me as a very easy design choice for TJC, both thematically and in terms of area denial and defense. That little 14 point puppetmaster is a great unit... Counter Intel, Mines and an SMG for cheap is a great little package. I'm surprised I don't see it more often in TJC lists.
