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Changes to crits confirmed. (And the best suggestion I have heard for changing it)

Discussion in 'News' started by deltakilo, Jan 27, 2020.

  1. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Shinobu is probably the most crit resistant trooper in the game due to her own incredible crit chance. With surprise attack and MA3 she's got about less than 3% chance to be killed by a crit, without surprise attack it's still less than 4%. (assuming CC of 15 or less on the opponent)

    So she loses in CC roughly every 25 enemies she fights, is that too often?
     
  2. ldgif

    ldgif Well-Known Member
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    People just hate getting critted no matter what. I get why people hate FAT2, but crit % increase in tabletop games is nowhere near as effective as it is in the math. I have run Tariq and Khawarij fully linked up a lot, and the amount of times Critting on 1’s has affected the course of the game has been pretty underwhelming for me. Now yes, one game I critted a Cutter 3 times on 1’s in two turns of shooting, but that felt more like an exception rather than the norm.

    I can see giving people a chance to roll for ARM, at least engages the player and might help things out, but people will still always get upset when their rambo will get critted.
     
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  3. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Crits changing away from automatic wounds in any way shape or form is a move away from oneshots for multiwound/expensive troops and that's good for viability of those troop types and health of the game.

    Crits getting a fixed damage value is a bad idea and so is +9 to damage for them. Especially if we consider they end up applied to all ARM rolls for the whole crit.
    +6 damage for single hit ammunition feels right (sticking with Infinity's increments of 3s for MODs). While HMGs don't need to have better crits than Combis DAM 21 vs DAM 19 is close enough. EXP, Viral and DA ammo would simply be +3 DAM (as usual only vs the main target but on all hits), just to make things a bit simpler than they are now.
    This makes the random long range Kuang Shi Pistol ARO Crit way less deadly when you're in cover and have some decent armor and that's the important part. There's less of an incentive to gamble for a crit BS Attack ARO vs a troop you can barely hit at long range. Opting for a BS 2 ARO instead of using a PH11 Dodge should not be rewarded by the game the way the current crit mechanics do.

    An alternative approach that is mechanically easier to implement would be Crits only cause automatic wounds in positive Rangebands.
    Keeps weapons deadly when they are supposed to be deadly. It's fine to autowin the FTF rolls and it makes sense that Snipers can keep critting away more, but it reigns in high burst weapons like a linked HMG getting used like a Shotgun and getting away with it due to 22% crit chance.

    Personally I'd like both. Make Crits +6 Dam (+3 for multihit ammo and non lethal ammo types) and have them only work in positive Rangebands.
    I'd definitely keep automatically winning all FTF rolls as much as I'd like to fiddle with that myself, that part is just a core mechanic in Infinity.

    /edit: Could also just see a very simple adjustment: If you Crit but the other guys gets a higher success than you the Crit only cancels hits without anything else happening - the rule of "higher rolls cancel enemy successes" would simply still apply. So a TAG shooting on 18s and rolling a 17 will be cancelled by a Combi Rilfe rolling a Crit at long Range on a 5 but the Crit would not do any damage whatsoever - unless the TAG really fumbled hard and rolled all 1-4s and misses instead.
    Zero extra rolls and just a slight change in existing mechanics.
     
    #43 Teslarod, Jan 29, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
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  4. Florian Hanke

    Florian Hanke Does not know how to stop building terrain.

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    What drew me to Infinity from D6 galore fiesta games was 1. fewer, more exciting dice rolls and outcomes, and 2. elegant core mechanics. In certain other games both were destroyed by high number of multi-level dice rolls which tend to kill my excitement. One mechanic that fits both 1 and 2 is crits – when on the losing side, they keep me excited and hoping for a chance of victory, when on the winning side they keep me excited and on edge since nothing is 100% clear yet. So I'm for keeping the crits as they are. They are elegant (no extra rolls) and mimicking the excitement and danger of a firefight well.

    As for changes to the crit mechanic, I don't think they are adding a second roll or calculations to it, as it would go against the streamlining goal of N4. I rather think a possible change could be to introduce crits that can win against other crits. An initial idea: if the crit value is higher, the crit still wins, same as with normal successes, but on another level, so to speak. If both sides roll a crit, the one with the higher target number wins all their crits. (Interestingly, beginners I met often thought they worked that way.)

    What are the ramifications?
    As an example: an ARO piece with target number 7 is attacked by someone with target number 13 eg. on B 4. If the former crits, the latter doesn't, the former still wins. Same vice versa. If both crit, the latter will cause 1-4 crits.
    So in a normal case, the ARO piece will get a crit in roughly 4% (0.05*(1-(0.95^4)) – the ARO chance of critting x the latter's chance of not critting). But in the 1% where both crit, resulting in a tie, the higher target number rolls would now win.
    This would make active pieces deadlier and stacking MODs more important, in the rare cases where both crit – and also make ties in cases when both crit much rarer (only on the same target number).
    Regarding Fatality L2, in case of both rolling crits, the 1 would very rarely (almost never, except in the hail mary case of the enemy shooting on a 1 target) win, slightly weakening Fatality L2.
    A modification would be to only count max. 1 crit even if one rolls multiple crits – but that'd be not exciting enough for me ;)

    Sure, this is just a small change, but adds excitement and keeps it simple (or even make it simpler), since it'd follow a mechanic already in the game (normal successes).
    P.S: Just remembered that CB never wants 100% certainty of an outcome – see SymbioMates –, so my specific example above is probably not going to happen.
     
    #44 Florian Hanke, Jan 29, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
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  5. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    @Teslarod +6 for some, +3 for others is annoyingly complex. You'd be better off just including the +6 on all dice rolls of DA etc into their cost.

    What I like about +9 damage is that it leaves crits basically the same for LI but adds the chance for a reprieve: it should lessen the psychological impact of being crit without fundamentally changing their underlying behaviour.

    In hindsight though, +8 is probably what you want (as odd a number as that is in Infinity), because it would mean ARM 1 in Cover would be on 20s to survive a HMG crit. This is probably one of, if not the, most common crit in the game.

    Where you'd start to see significant differences in behaviour is at high ARM (super-heavy HI and TAGs). Which would have relevant chances of surviving not-AT crits. This would add a degree of survivability and would need to be counterbalanced. But there's scope to do things like roll back Tac Awareness to achieve that.

    The other benefit is that Impetuous troops would, by and large, not have any chance to avoid crits: for them a crit would be an insta wound.

    However, there would be relatively little benefit for elite LI and MI. But I think that the Kamau and Ramah LI design shows us that their biggest issue aren't crits in general but rather Shock. Making shock simply Bio-ammo (ie hits BTS) would improve their situation immensely (it's laughable that a linked Grunt Sniper scares an Intruder more than a linked Securitate MSR simply because of Shock). This, incidentally, would allow you to make the base Sniper AP and in doing so increase the prevalence of AP and therefore decreasing any potential issues with Crit resistant TAGs.

    Overall a mix of slightly more prevalent AP, significantly more prevalent anti-BTS ammo and revised Hacking is probably enough to keep high-ARM (and therefore Crit resistant) troops in check.

    Re: this being inelegant and complex.

    I hardly think that doing something we already do - making an ARM roll - is inelegant design or not streamlined. It's a roll that would be made if the crit were a regular success, so it's built into the accounting of the game already.

    I do agree that fixed DAM is easier than calculated DAM. But I do think the minor tax of adding 8 or 9 to 11-15 isn't a reason to avoid a design that improves the psychological experience of crits. The mental tax of recovering from an inopportune crit significantly outweighs simple mental maths. Breaking the psychology from crit results in failure to crit provides opportunity for redemption and only then results in failure is IMO a good thing for player experience.
     
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  6. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    in addition to all those changes to attack crits talked about on the first page, any ideas on how Crits on dodge/engage/smoke will work ?
     
  7. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    I think they're already working alright, whilst some people have a bee in their bonnet about auto-wound (and it can be demoralising) I've never heard and real complaint about Dodge crits.
     
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  8. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Auto success unless countered by an opposing crit. Same as most of the suggestions are leaving attack crits as auto success.
     
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  9. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    The difference in a Dodge Crit and a lethal ARO crit is one lets you try again or repositions the defending troop, while the other possibly removes your piece as well as your Order investment into it that turn and hangs you out to dry for that to happen again.
    It's not likely, but there is no tactical component to a random enemy gambling to crit for a Pistol ARO Crit vs your Spetznaz because the reward of a hitting the Crit for a BS Attack only possible on a 1 is much higher than succeeding with a Dodge on 14s.

    If the Warband hits that one, you get punished for the other player making an objectively bad choice and that's it for your Spetznaz and the 4 Orders it took to get him there. If the other guy goes for the Dodge, hits his 14 and disappear behind Total Cover and you'll have to readjust your plans from there.

    There's more extreme examples like some random Jaguar blowing up your Su Jian up with his Panzerfaust at Shotgun range etc.
    Mind you that should not be impossible, but probably a bit harder than 1/20 to achieve.
    Does a Pistol ARO need to be able to damage an Avatar in Cover with those odds? Should a WIP13 Flashpulse always get to gamble being able to stop anything (without Total Immunity) dead in his tracks if he gets the 5% roll?
    (The actual number of any of that happening would naturally be in between 4%-4.75% after factoring in the other trooper can oppose with a Crit of their own)
     
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  10. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    That was very much my reasoning, no one ever lost a Spetsnaz to a Dodge ARO.
     
  11. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    That’s exactly why I think a +X to DAM is better. Where X is between 6-9, inclusive.

    Most TAGs are BTS 6 or 9 with Cover, so a +8 DAM puts a Flash Pulse at DAM13+8-9=12 (so 13s up). So a TAG will avoid a Flash Pulse Crit 40% of the time.

    Equally that Spetz will avoid the Warband’s pistol 30% of the time (DAM11+8-5 = 14, so 15 up).

    I’d agree that the precise number would need to be determined/confirmed by play testing and would also depend on other changes made to the game.
     
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  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I could see something along the lines of "auto-fail ARM/BTS if the attack's roll would've also won the face to face, otherwise only auto-win the face to face". That way you'll heavily reduce the impact of low-grade crits from stuff that have the odds stacked against them without going overboard on MODs.
    E.g.
    Mowang in cover shoots at two TR HMG whom both are in the 8-16" range band.
    Mowang rolls 1, 6 versus TR1 and 3 and 17 versus TR2.
    TR1 rolls 2, *5*, 7 and 7
    TR2 rolls *5*, 7, 8 and 8
    Since TR1's 5 is a crit and Mowang's 6 is a hit, the Mowang loses the FTF but gets to make an ARM roll
    Since TR2's 5 is also a crit and the Mowang's 3 is a lower hit, the Mowang loses the FTF and also automatically fail the ARM roll.

    It is toeing on N2's crit mechanic.
     
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  13. Disko King

    Disko King Well-Known Member

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    Just imagine if it was not like that in a real life? Oh wait, it is...
    So you think that it's bad if someone wins because of his experience, rather than instead of pure luck?
    Better tactics should be rewarded, not punished because someone has more luck with rolling crits.
     
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  14. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    I see some people that have never suffered a game where the enemy TAG player got good dice in ARO against your only 2 weapons capable of damaging with some chances a TAG and get to lose them early, or only fight against geckos. Is absurd to say "bring high damage weapons" when not all factions pay the same SWC on them, or have them in the same kind of platform. Also, hacking is lacking in real power at the moment and is very order expensive. EM is an option, but usually an unreliable short-range or a CC option that not everybody has.

    Critics are necesary for the game, at least with how TAGs and access to heavy weapons is now. So please, don't be condescendent
     
  15. LaughinGod

    LaughinGod Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    I guess you never had the game where you scored zero crits on enemy TAG? You reliably crit TAGs all the time somehow? Tell us how you do it, because otherwise your point is completely invalid. Relying on crits to save you from TAGs ( that are so good ATM they basically don't exist in the game ) is just dumb. It is exactly the same thing as relying on enemy rolling 1s on his armour save.
     
  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Hacking is very potent in ARO atm, provided the terrain allows you to somewhat hide your repeaters, but I do hope that they make it slightly more worthwhile spending orders on it.
     
  17. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    I am of those that suffer more crits than I deal, jet I think crits are necesary. I am not saying that I rely on crits, I just say that the coment "use high damage weapons" and similar are condescending. People use those tools, but not all faction have the same access to those tools, be it quantity, quality or so. And the worst of all of this is that I've seen some of those people that want crits out, want also EM out, jammer out, and so... some people here just want unbeatable TAGs (or similar troopers)

    yes, in ARO, if you prepare it beforehand spending half or a complete group turn on it, or spend as much as the TAG for a mechanic that might not be used if the enemy has nothing hackeable. But also in ARO, your enemy has to be a worse player to be hacked unless you got a TO surprise hacking (which, of course, should be strong AF, even if its a bit unrelliable). But even with that, some of the TAGs that hacking is the most reliable option (I will leave CC apart because it is the same against almost all TAGs, but is not an easy option for some factions), they have stealth, so hacking is not an option for most hackers
     
  18. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    CC, coorrdinated Panzerfausts, kill the supporting cast, use E/M, use a Boarding Shotgun, K1, AP/Multi or a plain old Spitfire/HMG will do if you catch it outside cover.

    It should be rather hard to frontally assault a friggin Marut in SF sitting behind cover. That thing is pretty expensive (40% of a list) and relative to that it isn't even hard to kill one with generic weapons before factoring in special ammo types.
    Making it a valid option to throw linetroopers with Rifles at a Jotum in cover, a target they couldn't even hurt without crit mechanics and shouldn't try to engage is a bit of a head scratcher.
    Imagine Hacking can try to hack every target, as long as you can roll a crit the program will work vs everything. Didn't crit the unhackable target? Nothing happens. Crits making ammo Types bypass Total Immunity, doesn't sound like fun either.

    You honestly should be punished for running a list unable to naturally deal with a TAG in multiple ways. Be that hosing it down with a linked Vet Kazak HMG, Dart with E/M Grenades or Myrmidions to beat it up in CC.

    Certain random 5 point idiots being able to take out the Avatar with 1 die is one of the bigger balance issues. Always being able to go for a hail mary and gamble it all on a crit isn't very constructive. There already is the option to fumble your rolls and mess up the save after in most situations, even in very favourable ones. Crits currently add an additional mechanic that automatically provides the same result as some very unfortunate rolls.
    I still think they're valueable as the great equalizer to prevent a TAG or Core Linked HMG from succeeding at every Order. Crits are in fact more impactful for all the Active turn HMGs out there than the Pistol AROs.
    Rolling 4-5 dice an Order increases your chance to just remove the target ignoring their defenses without factoring in Rangebands, MSVs vs Vis MODs etc. Crits are a detriment to most of the core game mechanics and defensive attributes, resulting in an incentive to use hordes of spammy chaff and high burst options.
    CC Troops being able to punch anything to death with bare hands is pretty unintuitive. Should a Linetrooper with a Knife really hit as hard as a TAG with an AP CCW because they both rolled a crit?


    +6 or +9 for all hits of a DA, Viral or EXP hit is going to be worse than current mechanics.
    And all of those ammo types are already good.
    Could always just stick with the way things currently work that the Crit effect is applied to only one of the ARM rolls. However Crit effects being individually listed for each ammo types (and the freaky exceptions for dual ammo types) could use removing or cleanup with N4.
     
    #58 Teslarod, Jan 30, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2020
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Armihaul, it's very apparent that you and I have vastly differing opinions on Hacking, sometimes I wonder if we play the same game. My typical successful hacking lists ('cause gods know I have a lot of unsuccessful ones) don't over spend on Hacking, but use it incidentally. A single Cyberghost that I primarily use for Dakini buffing and White Noise can lock down a Kriza that's slightly malpositioned by simple virtue of having a Siriusbot on the second floor of a building. The Kriza can move-reset out of it, but I have a serious shot at Isolating it on the way and they'll spend more orders getting through or out of the repeater than I dedicated to setting it up.
    It's a soft-contain, because if you try to make a hard contain you need to over-spend on it and then they'll just pick you appart using a standard skirmisher like a Zero.

    This is why I think ARO hacking is in a very strong spot right now, almost too strong, but I would rarely be caught spending orders on issuing hacking programs other than Redrum (and that has an abnormally high fail rate for me)
     
  20. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    yes, we have very different experience. If that kriza win the reset, he start go fail guts and move away (something lots of people don't know or forget), and you started with a "bad possitioned", so again, you were better than your enemy. You use a hacking as an option, your list is not dessigned to rely on it, so when it happens, is good. When you dessign a list for using activelly hacking, is not so realiable. A tool that if luck happens makes it work, and/or you need your opponent to do a bad play cannot be called useful
     
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