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2019 in Numbers - ITS data analysis

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Ieldin Soecr, Jan 23, 2020.

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  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    They have to jump over buildings. He's got a 10" Jump, a silhouette that allows him to vault at a very low stage in the jump, so even an objective room is often not going to hinder his Jump. And when Jumping hhe doesn't get to use his grenades.
    I think what often happens is that he'll get to make safe movements too often or gets to avoid jumping too often.
     
  2. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    remember that he can jump 6" and throw grenades. I've never seen someone using him to jump 10" and shot
     
  3. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    You can't. @Mahtamori point is that he needs to Entire Order jump if his 10" jump will get him to his objective.

    He's kinda correct.

    But he only needs to 10" jump if a 6" + 4" jump wouldn't get him just as far. Normally a 6" + 4" jump is just as effective as a 10" jump.
     
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You have to use Entire Order Jump when doing Impetuous Movement, you aren't able to use Short Skill Jump in those orders. Considering how many obstacles McMurrough can avoid by Jumping, a non-trivial amount of Impetuous Orders you spend on him over the course of several games must to be Entire Order Jump.
     
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  5. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Ah, I see your point. But everybody allows Short Order Jumps + Actions. It’s widely acknowledged as an oversight in legal Impetuous orders. But yes, strictest raw Jump + BS Attack isn’t legal.
     
  6. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    This is almost impossible to determine in a real situation and is going to result in a shouting fight or a very frustrating judge call - not something you'd want to start a game with

    I usually let opponent's Dogwarriors run whatever in general direction of a closest target because angle shooting in a tournament setting would just eat precious minutes from a round.
     
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  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    And I'm convinced that McMurrough is balanced without taking such liberties into account.
     
  8. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    why are you forced to use complete order jump when you have superjump? you are forced to use the shortest way to the nearest enemy... but you are not forced to complete orders
     
  9. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Because the list of allowed Order declarations for Impetuous Orders doesn’t include ‘Jump + something else’, just Jump on its own. But as the others have said, very few people play it that way.
     
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  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Not to be too harsh, but if the players are not able to make judgements on distances as simple as if it is fast jumping up 0,5" so that a DogFace is able to clear a building or going a full base' worth around a corner, losing over 2" movement, then perhaps those players should not be allowed to play impetuous orders?

    Because Jump + Action is not part of the allowed Order declarations on the Impetuous Order list.

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Fury

    IMPETUOUS ORDER
    Legal combinations of Skills

    Airborne Deployment
    Move + Activate (Activate + Move)
    Move + Attack (Attack + Move)
    Move + Dodge (Dodge + Move)
    Move + Idle (Idle + Move)
    Move + Move
    Jump
    Climb

    --

    But the main point is that if you don't play according to the rules that CB made, then perhaps you shouldn't be surprised if some things work noticeably better or noticeably worse that would be affected by them.
    Hence, if you house-rule that you're allowed to Jump + Action or select to Move instead of be forced to Jump during Impetuous Orders, then perhaps you need to make further house rules to Impetuous troopers...
     
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  11. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    That would be because, unless the model has Super-Jump, Jump is only an entire order skill. Bear in mind that such a situation was discussed in the forum before, and was concluded (If memory serves me right) that youd' be forced to do a Jump or Climb if you were exactly at the border of a drop, the base of a wall, or other situation in which doing a move does not allow you to move towards an enemy unit.

    While not RAW, I would think SuperJump makes jump "count as" move, specially since the RAW rules for super jump specify: "The user may declare the Jump Skill as an Entire Order to add up both his MOV values into one single mighty jump."; as far as I'm aware, "may" is one of the weakest (as in, less imperative) ways to present an option ("can" being more imperative, "should" even more, and "must" totally).

    Consider that the Chimera is in the same situation with Climbing plus, by the way.
     
  12. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    C+ and Superjump aren’t comparable. They don’t work the same way.

    It’s not McMurder this concerns me for but general dogs and Morlocks. McMurder is probably ok with it, but Morlocks aren’t.
     
  13. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Well, Climbing Plus doesn't have an option as long order, but it's in the weird place of being listed as single order... "climb + inaction" is not legal, "climb + climb" is not legal, etc...

    As for the list of affecteds by the SuperJump impetuosity, Krakots can get Superjump and the player can get nasty surprises if he decides to use the impetuous order and the rival claims he must do a long order jump
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    My memory does not concur, my memory says that the conclusion was "agree to disagree, but only because of linguistic mistakes in the rules". I also seem to recall there being an official answer on the topic, but in a much less stormy thread.

    Wholeheartedly disagree.

    The skill Move is used by some rules in other places and it is explicitly its own rule, you can't substitute another skill, not even a Short Movement Skill, when a Move is called for. The reason why Jump and Impetuous works the way it does is that Impetuous forces you to move the farthest distance the model can, so when you have a skill that can only be declared on its own in an Order as per the list, and the farthest you can Jump is 10", then you can't choose to only Jump 6" with it - this is a skill the makes the trooper suicidal. Literally.

    In either case, I think that the exact mechanics surrounding how McMurrough's large silhouette and long jump distance, is why they changed him to be Impetuous instead of Extreme Impetuous, because quite simply he was likely a bit too difficult to use with those things combined.
    I encourage anyone who house rules Impetuous to also change McMurrough back to Extreme due to the consequences thereof.

    It is not. Climb+ does not make alterations to Entire Order skills, it allows further range of surfaces for the Move skill.

    Morlocks are 1.75" tall and have a Jump distance of 8". Typically, unless you're hiding them behind very wide buildings, it'll still be faster to run around the building because they will have to sacrifice a significant distance to start a vaulting Jump. When you also have a choice between a Move+Move and a Jump that are equidistant, the rules (only) say that Jump or Climb has to be used if that would make the distance (in orders) shorter.
    So for most terrain Morlocks would be safe.

    Edit: plus you can always hide them a bit further from the wall to make the Jump more clearly less favourable.
     
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  15. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Climbing plus: "This Special Skill alters the user's Climb Skill from an Entire Order Skill to a Short Movement Skill." This doesn't seem to leave any leeway about the change, as far as I read it, if you get the skill, climbing becomes a short order instead of a long one.

    You can't make a Short order climb under impetuous rules: you need to declare a second order, even if it's Idle, and that combo is not in the list. The relevancy being that, unlike the superjump skill, C+ does not give an option to make a "long order climb"...

    So what must declare a Chimera in her extreme impetuous, with buildings in her path, that also is a legal combination in that list?
     
  16. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Read further:
    • Climbing Plus allows its user to declare other Short Movement Skills or Short Skills (Move + BS Attack, for example) while moving along or holding onto a vertical surface.
    A Trooper with Climbing Plus is never required to declare Climb, making it behave very differently from Super-Jump.
     
  17. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    Choice of scenario has to make an impact on this right? Supplies is the single most popular scenario out of the lot, and I hate that scenario with a passion. Spammy midfield lists basically win that one for free, and if your chosen faction can't do it? Well, that's you fighting uphill all game.

    The thing is, and this was told to me by the TO of the last tournament I went to and really it's the cold hard truth when looking at tournaments and Wins and Losses... "You choose the faction you bring to the tournament". This was said in response to me saying that the missions chosen should be fairer for all factions.

    That might sound silly, but really- if you only care about winning you should absolutely be chasing the percieved best thing and only bringing that. Or looking at the tournament missions ahead of time, and then picking the best faction to do those missions.

    This isn't really how a lot of people play, and is also why they lose on aggregate. Look at all those poor vanilla pano players who will try to smash that faction into every tournament regardless of appropriateness. Everyone with one faction doesn't get to 'choose' which faction to bring. Those players aren't hardcore enough or have the resources to field multiple armies at leisure.
     
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  18. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Supplies is not nearly as bad as some missions (by which I mean it’s not really bad at all): and while midfield heavy strategies are the easiest way to play that mission they’re not the only way. L&S, Hunting Party and BTV are a lot worse: they all require very much purpose built lists to even have a chance.
     
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  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I don't think Hunting Party requires any more specialised list than any generic button pusher (because any unit can be used to complete mission obj. in HP, but you have to have specialists capable of getting to the objectives in button pushers). Probably less, actually. But it messes with unit balance by adding non-negligible weapons to to characters and veteran+ plus it further emphasises/punishes HI/TAG LTs and specialists versus E/M so it will naturally skew statistics both on unit and sectorial level (slightly less so for non-sectorials due to more options)
     
  20. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    Depends on a faction but for HP you want less non-marker specialists, you want either a camo LT or a high BTS one so you wouldnt get jammed/stunned easily and you want as many Veteran/Elite troops as possible, preferrably in a fireteam, for the sweet free ADHLs. All that warrants tweaks to the generic list, I think.
    Like, specifically for Hunting Party Intruder LT may be a great choice for Corregidor, for example.
     
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