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Very disappointed with Ramah TaskForce

Discussion in 'Haqqislam' started by SirNando, Jul 19, 2019.

  1. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Different time periods. Bostria's graph is for the last few months, Ieldin's covers 2019.
     
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  2. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Be that as it may, as pointed out and suggested by the discrepancy - Not including Minors, Majors, Ties and Losses makes for one terribly inaccurate statistic in this game.
    Ieldin's numbers are a much better fit comparing to last year for reference.
     
  3. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    I'm just pointing out that there's no need to invoke 'possibly flat out wrong numbers'.
     
  4. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    If you compare the overall statistics and Bostrias Numbers.... with the 2019 overall ones
    [​IMG]
    If you compare the overall statistics and Bostrias Numbers.... with the 2019 overall ones you'll have a hard time buying into Acon, Spiral and Dashast, top 10, top 5 and top 1 in overall 2019 TP stats, to be rock bottom in winrates.
    It's much more likely that should be 57.29% WR for Acon, 54.55% for Spiral and 55.58% for Dashat than the numbers displayed here.
    Same for Aleph, Tohaa and OSS all being below 50% despite being top 5 TP overall.
    There are some numbers that match well, so it can't be a flat out error like accidentially taking the numbers for "didn't win" for everything.
    However with a sample size of up to 4 digit games this appears suspicious.
    Since Ieldin is checking his numbers to match CB's might as well figure out if there's something wacky in this chart.
     
  5. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    What can I say, doing whatever I could... and you have years of experience against my QK and HB :).
     
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  6. emperorsaistone

    emperorsaistone Well-Known Member

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    Wheter or not those numbers are right, they dont matter all that much, if ones biggest complaint was, that Ramah is a thematical aswell a internal balance mess. And that was a complaint of many, if not most in this thread.

    The more interesting number is, how many games were played and Ramah is in the region of the very old Sectorials.
     
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  7. Koval

    Koval Well-Known Member

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    I haven't done any analysis of Ieldin Soecr's number beyond what he did, but I ran the numbers CB gave through a basic significance test. The only one that was arguably significant was Acontecimento. Everything else was well within normal variation. And, looking at 37 different factions, one of them being in that borderline area is to be expected.

    Because of that, it's not at all surprising for a similar analysis using a different set of data to get completely different results.
     
  8. Fenrir

    Fenrir Well-Known Member

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    Guys, I would told you the truth about the ramah numbers.

    ITS its about turnaments and what are the turnaments playing these days... Is called tactical window (15 men list) with spec ops so ramah its getting good numbers and good results but if you play them in normal games you would see that this number falls.

    In the other hand ramah isnt any fun for both of the players because its crit time, the meta list is playing 2 or 3 kawarij spitfire + tariq core link, so you may crit more than... 6-10 times in a game vs 15 man list...
     
  9. ldgif

    ldgif Well-Known Member
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    I haven’t played any tactical window games, and I feel RTF is alright.
    Plus I don’t know what meta you are playing in with multiple FAT2 units in a link. Fat2 is the most unreliable skill in the game. On paper it is significantly better than its’ actual performance. If you think that is more meta than a Muhktar Haris, that is quite strange.
     
  10. Koval

    Koval Well-Known Member

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    Fatality 2 is only on two profiles in the whole sectoral. I definitely wouldn't put both of them in a link, but even if that works for you, it's far from the only thing Ramah does. I've had much better success with the khawarij mk12 than the spitfire profile, and typically only take Tarik in limited insertion or missions that involve interacting with lieutenants.

    Honestly, the best unit in Ramah is the mukhtar, and none of them have fatality 2.
     
  11. sololobo

    sololobo Well-Known Member

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    Everyone is just salty Ramah pushes them out of their comfort zone. The oddity to me is that the infinity community, to me, has a higher than average intelligence. So, not accepting the challenge of building and playing to new strengths within the same beloved design space, Haqqislam, is a bit of a disappointment. Instead, the community has embraced bitching and bemoaning ad nauseam without any substance.
     
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  12. emperorsaistone

    emperorsaistone Well-Known Member

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    No, not everybody. Read the thread.
     
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  13. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    On paper it's half a mimetism.
    So I would say "in wide eyes of a confirmation bias victim" instead of "on paper".
     
  14. CmdrSandmann

    CmdrSandmann Well-Known Member

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    For me, it's not about powerlevel - it's about versimilitude and internal balance. And Ramah lacks both. I played a whole Paradiso Campaign with it, and while I think I would have done slightly better with QK or HB, that ist because we try to limit proxying to an absolute minimum, and so I didn't use eg Mukthars (except once to test them out). But the sectorial is all over the place. Supersoldiers and bog standard LI and HI, Mukthars and Zhayedan, Wild Bill and Carmen in what is supposed to be a regular military force, Maggies and Al Fasids in a rapid response force... It doesn't gel. At all.

    Of course, this is highly subjective, but my complaints about Ramah have nothing to do with the powerlevel of the sectorial, and I think I'm not the only one.
     
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  15. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Tbh I'm not sure Maggie in a rapid response force are terrible fit. Those middle-of-20th century cavemen were dropping combat-ready IFVs as a part of airdrop companies' MO. Those IFVs were a lot more unwieldy than modern TAGs and aircrafts were downright terrible compared to those we have access to in 23th century. And that still worked.

    We've been over Ramah shortcomings for a while now though. For a change I'm not going to repeat that again for what would be like 5th time even if we count this thread only.
     
  16. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    One of the big background justifications for TAGs over tanks is that they’re extremely fast to deploy in comparison, and have a tiny fraction of a tank’s massive requirements for logistical support.
     
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  17. sololobo

    sololobo Well-Known Member

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    I did. There were some people like myself who disagree and think Ramah is quite good. But, we are not the majority.

    From what I gather, you were not able to give Ramah a full chance because of the limited product. And, a mix of fluff in that Maggy and Al Fasid are not a QRF (Quick Reaction Force). I would recommend in deferring judgement then. And yes, heavies such as Maggy and Al Fasid do not qualify as QRF themed but when compared to the other sectorials RTF boats Mukhtars, Hakims, Nahab, and Tuaregs. So, theme wise RTF backs up the statement.

    See, lack of substance. I’ve asked for this information before and was ignored. I’ve read the thread, all blooming 9 pages of it, and nothing seemed to ring as a valid complaint. The most common complaints about Ramah is that it lacks field control, cheap infiltrators, AROs, and warbands. Sounds like HB or QK. These complaints harken to unfamiliar territory, which was my complaint and disappointment with the Haq community willing to adapt to new strengths within its design space.

    But it’s cool, I think I seen enough to firmly make up my mind now.
     
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  18. CmdrSandmann

    CmdrSandmann Well-Known Member

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    I don't follow your logic here with "giving Ramah a chance" - in the game, they are fine and work, especially Mukthars, Tarik and the mixed Ghulam team. I have no issue with RTF not having Hunzakut-equivalents or a lack of template weapons. But rather that the same sectorial that has Mukthars has the Zhayedans, who are so much worse in comparison that they are permanently shelved for me. Or that Wild Bill and Carmen hang around them. These two would make sense for me in QK - they hire mercenaries all the time, because they are spread out over a huge area and can't always have Haqq military at hand. But why are they in Ramah? They have (as far as I know) no link to it in the fluff.

    I didn't recall that. But if that is the case in universe, I'm game :slightly_smiling_face: and Maggie's fine by me
    (Although from what I know dropping fighting vehicles from the air has mostly resulted in severly lacking fighting vehicles because of the weight issues).
     
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  19. Geodron

    Geodron Well-Known Member

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    As a guy that has been on QRF and GRF the actual speed and mobility of the deployable units is not what is being referred to. QRF is just being at the ready for a rapid response. Rapid being how long it takes to spin up. Also QRF is often already in the area. If you know something is going to happen odds are QRF has been spun up and is ready for the call before its even needed. So heavy units may have deployed a week before they ever get used.

    Maggies and Fasids make sense and would be used to fit the mission. Hence why they are available for deployment. QRF has to be able to respond to all sorts of things and will need the equipment to do so. A Morat heavy infantry assault pressing a Haqq strong point isn't going to need a bunch of light armed and armored units but dropping in maggies, jannissaries or fasids could save the day.

    RTF offers you the ability to build a list that looks like a response to a specific problem.
     
    #179 Geodron, Jan 29, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
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  20. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Remember it's Canon that at least one Al Fasid has been smuggled onto a space station inside an out of order portaloo to support a Ramah Task Force operation.
     
    #180 colbrook, Jan 29, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2020
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