This point is interesting because as TJC you don't want to lose on the Hacking Front. A point made during a White Noise interview by a guy who won a fairly descent tournament was how he was not splitting his lists for each mission, but rather depending on the opponent he will have to face. Non Hackable armies (Ariadna, Shas, Tohaa for ex) vs Hackable ones (YJ, PanO, Aleph for ex). This really resonated with me. But as for the topic brought by @inane.imp I don't have an answer. If anything I like the fact that the HM core can be played in almost any ITS missions and let me focus on improving my game rather than try to find solutions in my lists This is now my default list for facing non Hackable armies. 1 mine, 2 zondbots and 3 puppets to cockblock impersonators looking to murder my obvious LT or puppet master in T1 22 wounds for high resilience TR + ML + combi (for shorter lanes) + MMR puppets for ARO duty Jammer for extra board control TJC Non Hack HM ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 CLOCKMAKER Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18) ZONDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) ZONDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) HOLLOW MEN Missile Launcher, Chain-colt / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (2 | 35) HOLLOW MEN Combi Rifle, Chain-colt / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30) HOLLOW MEN Spitfire, Chain-colt / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (2 | 36) HOLLOW MEN (Specialist Operative) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30) STEMPLER ZOND FTO (Super-Jump) Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 18) HECKLER Combi Rifle, Jammer, 1 FastPanda / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23) REAKTION ZOND HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 26) PUPPETBOT (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun / Electric Pulse. (0 | 11) PUPPETBOT (Marksmanship L1) AP Marksman Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 14) PUPPETBOT (Marksmanship L1) AP Marksman Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 14) PUPPET MASTERS (Minelayer) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 14) INTERVENTOR Hacker Lieutenant (Hacking Device Plus) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 25) 6 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army
That's more of a downside to the current ITS packet than a bonus of HM teams, and shows just how murder centric and samey they've become lately.
I disagree, it is easy to have loads of specialists. Without trying the list above has a hacker, an engineer, a FO and a generic specialist
I think what this conversation often comes down to is "the Grenzer core ain't that good" and I actually agree with that. Securitate can take Grenzers anyway so it's not very exciting or interesting. I'd say if the Grenzer Core was more interesting, this would be fine.
Even when they're not murdery mobility and survivable specialists are important. HM have that too. I think HM are really well designed, because while they're very good they aren't supremely dominant. The issue isn't how they compare outside of Tunguska, but how versatile they can be within it: one of the guys I play with took Tunguska to second table at Cancon 2019 only ever playing HM core lists. Where HM cores are weak though is missions that require coverage. The core is probably not ideal for say Unmasking because of the requirement they support defensive and offensive roles in most likely different places. The same is often - table dependent - true of Supplies. (Both of these are really the last of the old school 'button pushing' missions). HM cores can also suffer in quadrant control missions because you can end up with too many points in one quarter. There's probably some specific match ups where they're not great as well. So Unmasking, Supplies, Supremacy... I probably don't take a HM core to that tournie. But what do I take instead? Active Sec Core + Hollowmen Duo/Haris was what we (well Tournique and I) thought of earlier. ----- One of the other relatively sensible ways of splitting lists is: vs MSV ARO factions and non-MSV ARO factions. Not being stuck with 'needing' White Noise frees up 25pts if you didn't need the Interventor for something else. Knowing that you're not going to run it vs MSV AROs makes the Zondnautica Spitfire an attractive option paired with a core-linked Grenzer MSR as your first turn attacking options. They have complimentary target sets.
While I agree with this for the most part, just got home from game night with power pack being the mission for the week there were a couple of times where I wish i had the grenzer core so I wasn't trapped hugging one building in the DZ with most of my army. while a super niche place for one of the 3 cores in the army, though I will admit that this line of thought may have been more me being frustrated at the mission.
I've run almost an entirely MI + SK + AD CJC list in Powerpack. "oh... so only my Jags and Dak deploy in my DZ... I swear this wasn't intentional". It's mostly that. But I feel that's it is more as well. Even within the not-Grenzer core archetypes the two I posted initially feel, to me, extremely dominant. But... looking at the 2019 ITS numbers thread there's a chance I'm overstating the role of the Kriza. It doesn't seem to be being used as much of a crutch as I'd expect. So perhaps this is more accurately described as a response to complaint about the domiance of Hollowmen in Tunguska; which, appeared (to me) only to be avoided by instead leaning on Kriza. Anyway it's forcing me to do what I wanted to do, think about other ways of playing Tunguska. So thanks for the participation so far.
I'm surprised I'm not seeing triple heckler/fast panda + GML anywhere on here. Just felt like dropping a friendly reminder that everyone is hackable from spotlight, and ariadna and tohaa especially so. All you need are fifteen orders or so, the GML in group 1, a hacker in each group, and you're pretty much guaranteed to take out their two most important models and if you're not unlucky closer to four. Even with only one hacker, an interventor lieutenant in group two, that's six orders to drop spotlight and you've got to be pretty unlucky not to be able to stick it twice. It's not something you want to do every mission, but I've found my hacking list is always short on SWC and so it's super easy to fit the eighteen point GML in there anyway.
Tried this last night, performed reasonably well against JSA on Power Pack, when I get the time I will do a lengthier write up.
Because Jazz + Tsyklon Cores with GML exist. Or Z&P + Interventor + GML lists are a thing in Vanilla. If I'm going out of my way to build a GML list I'll generally use those. What I tend to do in Bakunin is throw in a GML as an option rather than a primary tactic. I could see myself doing the same in Tunguska but tend to run into order or SWC issues before I get to the point of going 'hmm I could add a vertigo'. How do you build the rest of the list when you're running GMLs?
For me in Bakunin, the support structure for the Vertigo is Meteor + Zero AHD + Zero Deprep. Between those three it's rarely a problem to score a spotlight on whatever for around four orders. I guess the Tunguska equivalent is Meteor + Heckler Jammer + Interventor? It's important not to overspend.
In Bakunin I usually go Zero Dep Rep, Z&P, Vertigo with Meteor optional. That comes out at only 1.5 SWC so it's very easy to fit in, even with Zero ML and 2SWC guns. Agree with the point though. But that's 3 SWC, and the whole list starts getting tight. Jurisdictional Command of Tunguska ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 GRENZER MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 32) SECURITATE (Repeater) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) SECURITATE (Repeater) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) SECURITATE Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) SECURITATE HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 21) METEOR ZOND Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (1 | 21) INTERVENTOR Hacker Lieutenant (Hacking Device Plus) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 25) HECKLER Combi Rifle, Jammer, 1 FastPanda / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23) HECKLER Combi Rifle, Jammer, 1 FastPanda / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23) HECKLER Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Cybermines / Assault Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24) GROUP 2 6 VERTIGO ZOND Smart Missile Launcher / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 18) PUPPET MASTERS (Minelayer) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 14) STEMPLER ZOND Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 17) TRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) TRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) CLOCKMAKER Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18) ZONDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) 6 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army My first build of that list ended up at 304/6.5 with a Reaktion. I'd seriously consider dropping the Puppetmaster for an EVO and finding the extra 11pts from somewhere. The groupings I built that way to have a door opening / Targeted pool and then the Guided pool. I'm not set on them being correct. But goddamn it shows up the Meteor suffering from its SWC tax. I'd run that in Unmasking or Supplies. Probably ignore buttons Turn 1 and move to establish dominance instead. It would have been a good Comms Centre list (although in which case EVO would be mandatory). Might also do OK in Powerplay, but that's really a mission you want to go second in or have beefy specialists: so would need adjustment.
Tunguska300ptsITS1A ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 PERSEUS FTO (Fireteam: Haris) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / 2 Pistols, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 33) SECURITATE MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 21) SECURITATE HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 21) SECURITATE Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 21) SECURITATE Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) SECURITATE Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13) HECKLER Combi Rifle, Jammer, 1 FastPanda / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23) HECKLER Combi Rifle, Jammer, 1 FastPanda / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23) HECKLER Combi Rifle, Jammer, 1 FastPanda / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23) VERTIGO ZOND Smart Missile Launcher / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 18) GROUP 2 7 INTERVENTOR Hacker (Hacking Device Plus) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 24) METEOR ZOND Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (1 | 21) PUPPET MASTERS Submachine Gun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) TRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) TRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) SALYUT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) SALYUT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) 6 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army (for example)
No way, this is the wrong idea. The whole point of the Vertigo is that you handle the long range fight indirectly and you don't need to invest. A Securitate HMG is enough. I feel like once you have the Vertigo you can take muscular dudes like these: Jurisdictional Command of Tunguska ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 4 2 1 KRIZA BORAC Lieutenant (360º Visor) Mk12, Submachine Gun / Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 64) SPECTOR (AD: Combat Jump) Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser, Drop Bears / Pistol, E/M2 CC Weapon. (0 | 33) MIRANDA ASHCROFT Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 20) PERSEUS (Super-Jump) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / 2 Pistols, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 34) ZONDNAUT Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 32) ZONDMATE Chain Rifle, Smoke Light Grenade Launcher / Electric Pulse. (5) PUPPET MASTERS Submachine Gun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) PUPPETBOT (Marksmanship L1) AP Marksman Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 14) PUPPETBOT (Marksmanship L1) AP Marksman Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 14) PUPPETBOT (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun / Electric Pulse. (0 | 11) 1 SWC | 234 Points Open in Infinity Army I like the Vertigo best for missions like Annihilation and Firefight where you can take your time and sit mostly on your half of the board.
Hi Guys, i've read a lot and I'm struggling with you about Tunguska different ways of play. I need ad advise: How do you really play HM? I've tried several times Haris or Core but i've early finish my game. Maybe I've made great mistakes with deploy or movement, but I think I really need help
Like an FPS with the player speed cranked up to eleven and gravity turned down. In short, you use the high move speed and super jump to out flank opponents and hit them outside of cover, jump from roof top to roof top to avoid deployabe weapons, rocket jump at very long range with the ML to catch them out of cover and in a bad rangeband and blow them away.
Also, don't solely rely on them. I had a game where they draw so much attention from my opponent that the TR bot with Assissted fire received 2/3 of my orders for the full game and murdered all his ariadnan ;) Be flexible. The ideal case where you can super jump and play like Batman can be easily denied.
One secret to hollow men is keeping them in inaccessible locations like the tops of buildings and going prone with them if they lose a structure. Have Clockmaker's zondbot nearby to fix them back on your turn, especially early in the game. Don't over extend them past your support, unless you've killed all of the immediate threats. Of course exploit Super Jump to catch units out of cover and and out of range with your higher burst weaponry and most importantly, catching many targets with the missile launcher that didnt see it coming..
Thanks Guys! I've always want to try hard the HM core, but I'm a little "scary" to push to much in a single core and not be able to use it well. The ML always as an aro piece to fix if he died with clockmaker? In my meta is usually taken 14/16 order list, so I prefer to not make Limited Insertion list, you think its possible a longer list with an HM core?
