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Dire Foes 9

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by Solar, Nov 17, 2019.

  1. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Competitive is objective, it just depends on a whole lot of variables so it's difficult to accurately measure.

    Infinity is well balanced so minor competitive differences have less of an effect than skilled play. This works to obscure differences in competitiveness between sectorials.

    MO is interesting: looking at the numbers we have it appears to achieve ranking success while simultaneously struggling to score TPs. To me this appears like a faction that can do well when handled by a highly skilled player but which struggles in a less skilled player's hands. Personally, my read of MO (having discussed this extensively with MO players) is that MO has a higher skill floor and only performs at its peak in certain types of missions. This limits its peak performance to circumstances.

    So no I don't think it's fair to say that "every faction can be as competitive as you want them to be". Some are limited.

    In Tunguska I find similar problems: it's very easy to make a bad list in Tunguska, which gives the faction a relatively high skill floor (where bad list is one that has flaws that are highly exploitable by common tactics). Second, I find 'good' Tunguska lists follow very tight scripts which limits variety. It also means that even solid Tunguska lists are easily anticipated and have clear weaknesses.
     
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  2. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    She totally can tho

    Sensor allows you to use the Triangulated Fire skill.
     
  3. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Since apparently we can just reject evidence because it doesn't agree with our hypothesis, I'm going to do that. But I'll claim the reason I'm doing so is because it's anecdotal [emoji14]

    Joking aside, I find that an interesting mix. I'm very much surprised IA is so high. I don't know what's going on to speculate as to why.

    Unfortunately I can't find the 2019 Novacore breakdown (Novacore was a Pain Train friendly mission set that saw MO reaching top table). But it doesn't show the same spike for Tunguska (or IA). However, Novacore's data is aggregated into the overall data set being discussed on Human Sphere at the moment (major Australian events have a high number of list uploads).

    Unless something weird is going on where the same places where Tunguska is popular also under-report data I think it's fair to accept the available data, and conclude that Tunguska's usage isn't as high (proportional to the Nomads player base) as IA, OSS or TAK as a proportion of their factions base.

    Tl;Dr based on available data it looks like your meta is playing Tunguska at a higher rate than the global norm.

    Edit: I just looked at the Cancon line up happening now. There's precisely as many Tunguska as Corregidor listed (3), 1 vanilla Nomads and no Bakunin. In Aleph there's 0 OSS, 2 vanilla and 2 SP. Reporting is quite low though.

    So I think the only thing that shows is that you can't determine broad trends (other new factions usage spiked more compared to their player base then Tunguska did) from a single small set of data.
     
    #343 inane.imp, Jan 25, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2020
  4. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    I could have sworn you needed FO as well. Did they change that?
     
  5. jfunkd

    jfunkd hard forum hittin Carlos
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    FWIW I think that list reporting is so chronically ignored in the US that the cited dataset is not representative of what's being played.

    I will always change my perception in the face of trustworthy data, what I want to know is truth not what I think or believe.
     
  6. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    You're thinking of Satlock which needs Sensor, FO AND Satlock.
     
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  7. helsbecter

    helsbecter Ultrademocratic subSenator, #dominion Module

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    It's 2020 and I'm still playing Bakunin through thick and thin.

    all yall faction shoppers and dilettantes get out, pick a faction and get good:R:
     
  8. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Whereas my experience in Aus is that there's under-reporting but it's not so large as to make the dataset unusable. Moreover what under reporting there is is representative of the whole. So it doesn't distort the conclusions.

    It's why I look at the information we have and think "sure it's not perfect, and it doesn't support specific conclusions but it does support broad analysis". That, and if you compare it from other aggregate reports we've seen (Asteroid Blues, 2018 ITS data) it's broadly congruent. So I think rejecting it out of hand is unsupportable: it's letting a desire for the perfect get in the way of the useful.

    I think it's fair to say that, compared to the other sectorials in its faction Tunguska's usage had less of a spike during 2019 than other new sectorials; Ramah being a notable exception.* By how much I can't say because the data doesn't support that specificity.

    * if someone was interested they could actually do the maths to work out whether (given the known amount of under reporting) the difference was within the margin of error of the dataset.
     
  9. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Lol. I'm only Nomads and NA2, and I'm considered weird by my meta. Single sectorial is out there.
     
  10. Snowball

    Snowball Well-Known Member
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    Hahaha preach!!
     
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  11. helsbecter

    helsbecter Ultrademocratic subSenator, #dominion Module

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    We did a paint-and-play limited insertion tournament last November that I painted a QK list for. Those are the only games I've ever played as not-Bakunin since I got enough models to graduate from vanilla. Honestly, I think it takes a lot of games to learn to play around the weaknesses of a faction, and once you've managed it, they aren't such a big deal. Tunguska's a newer faction, but I know there's more to it than "Salyut Evo + Raoul" and "Mary Problems gets her ass kicked by warband unit"

    Someone just needs to fall in love with it and find out.
     
  12. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    One week my Intruder MSR cost over 50 points. The next he didn't.

    One week Jaguars weren't a thing. The next he was stabbing a Swiss Guard in the face.

    One week Geckos only played nice with other Geckos. The next they had lots of duo pals.

    I haven't bought models for YEARS.

    Today I stand with the giants of the old guard, proudly passing off poverty as superior loyalty and asceticism.
     
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  13. Ugin

    Ugin Well-Known Member
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    Whoa, I see some angery guys not happy with her..
    I thought Sensor / SO / Breaker+X-Visor on a LI which can make rather lightweighted fireteam would be nice, and compared to Grenzer FO she's fast and cheap.

    And I'm curious y'all have many chances to use msv1 / BS13 / Sensor guy, with combi rifles? For me, she looks like a good balance between heavily armoured guy(relatively low chance to engage diretly) and a fast but fragile remote.
     
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  14. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    She's a good unit but doesn't add anything new to the faction. Same problem with that new Phalanx hero.
     
  15. ldgif

    ldgif Well-Known Member
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    This here is my biggest issue, not the playability. I have used the Grenzer FO to some mediocre success, so I will probably just replace it with Kovac.

    The design-space is just extremely boring and as an added bonus, the 2nd released Grenzer model gets put on a shelf! Good thing it wasn’t a Grenzer ML, Spitfire or Sec FB in Securitate SWC box!
     
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  16. Click2kill

    Click2kill Well-Known Member

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    I've only taken the Grenzer FO option for the liaison. I prefer the SWC Grenzers.

    As for the state of TJC, The sectorial, IMO, is the "anti-meta". While it doesn't have the greatest answer to smoke, you can White Noise past MSV and spot/sniff out camo markers before they are upon you. And the hacking coverage is insane, while you have access to some of the best KHD units in the game(Really, only Combined hackers give TJC a run for its worth). Veteran Lv 1 counters jammer strats.

    Now regarding Jelena, X-Visor + Breaker rifle makes her worth it, IMO. Its pretty strong considering she will most likely be in a link team and Breaker ammo is a little underrated.
     
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  17. Snowball

    Snowball Well-Known Member
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    Yeah I am pretty glad for what she is. I don’t want to see things that plague other games like 40k where something gets released and it’s the new hotness that everyone flocks to because it’s an I win button till the next codex is released. That’s why I love infinity, it takes some skill and finesse to make things work. Just because I suck with one thing doesn’t make it garbage, I use to suck with warbands and thought they were trash till someone wrecked me with them and showed me the error of my ways. I think our new little character just needs a little table time to really see how she plays and what makes her tick.

    That being said I think it’s time to throw down some lists!
    Jurisdictional Command of Tunguska──────────────────────────────────────────────────GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]1 SECURITATE HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 21) SECURITATE Feuerbach / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 22) SECURITATE (Repeater) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) JELENA KOVAČ Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21) PERSEUS FTO (Fireteam: Haris) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / 2 Pistols, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 33) INTERVENTOR Hacker Lieutenant (Hacking Device Plus) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 25) MARY PROBLEMS Hacker (Forward Deployment L1) Submachine Gun + Zapper, Pitcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 30) DAKTARI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) ZONDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) PUPPET MASTERS Submachine Gun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) PUPPETBOT (Marksmanship L1) AP Marksman Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 14) PUPPETBOT (Marksmanship L1) AP Marksman Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 14) PUPPETBOT (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun / Electric Pulse. (0 | 11) ZONDNAUT Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 32) [​IMG] ZONDMATE Chain Rifle, Smoke Light Grenade Launcher / Electric Pulse. (5)GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]1 SPECTOR (AD: Combat Jump) Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser, Drop Bears / Pistol, E/M2 CC Weapon. (0 | 33) 4 SWC | 300 PointsOpen in Infinity Army

    now, this is definitely a crappy list as I think 11 orders is just bad, but kinda gives an idea of what you could do with her lol. Lots of firepower, lots of hacking, Raoul kinda just hangs out till room opens up to. CT him into group 1. Throw puppets mid field to be dealt with first to soak enemy orders before they start chipping away at the order pool. Counterintelligence makes strategic use of CTs not suck as hard so 11 orders is more doable. Plus it’ll freak your opponent out for what could be in group 2 (happens in my meta a lot anyways where they try to over plan for anything you may bring and end up making mistakes). Does it counter everything? No, does it cover all your bases? No. But that’s the joy I get from this game, is trying to make things work and tinkering and fine tuning lists to better optimize what you want to get out of it, and doing the best you can with what you got. Not complaining over what you don’t have, you stop having fun at that point and I pray to Odin you don’t stop others from having fun. Now if you’ll excuse me I have to go make a Tom Brady meme of him crying at how warbands and TO is too hard to fight lol.
     
  18. jfunkd

    jfunkd hard forum hittin Carlos
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    That's great. What I am saying is that in the US very few players report their lists, so much so that it absolutely distorts those ITS results into something that is not representative of the largest Infinity market, thus largely invalidating the data-set for faction/unit data.

    Edit: I'd love to be dead wrong about this, but I don't think I am. It's not about the data supporting my arguments, I'd be fine if it contradicted me, but I also don't think popularity is necessarily indicative of a faction's potential.
     
    #358 jfunkd, Jan 25, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2020
  19. natetehaggresar

    natetehaggresar Senior Backlogged Painter Manager

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    I think both releases are very good. They both keep the themes of their factions, while giving new options.

    Hippolyta really opens up some boards with super jump and I've been seriously considering taking her to a satilite for her ability to loot.

    Jalena also stays within the theme of her faction, but opens up some new link options, which I think is a good thing.

    Tbh I wish more releases were like those two.
     
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  20. helsbecter

    helsbecter Ultrademocratic subSenator, #dominion Module

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    Here's my take on Jelena.

    You had the Perseus special link, where the developer had a clear intent in mind (extremely mobile killing squad on tight boards) but created something that sucked. Now, with Jelena, you get the same functionality, a bigger set of range bands, and you can bring a paramedic to help Percy or your Kriza.

    She's also a contributor against a problem I hear TJC players talk about a lot: it's hard to defend yourself. She slots in the securitate core, she has sensor so the team can gank any camo markers that get near, she has an X-visor so she can credibly threaten a huge area of the DZ versus an AD trooper and she has a DTW they normally could not get.

    This release clearly shores up some of the troubles in Tunguska without being power creep. It's a good release.

    Jurisdictional Command of Tunguska
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]3
    PERSEUS FTO (Fireteam: Haris) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / 2 Pistols, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 33)
    STEMPLER ZOND FTO (Super-Jump) Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 18)
    SPECTOR FTO (Regular) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser, Drop Bears / Pistol, E/M2 CC Weapon. (0 | 36)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]3
    PERSEUS (Super-Jump) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / 2 Pistols, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 34)
    JELENA KOVAČ Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21)
    SECURITATE Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)

    0 SWC | 157 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
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