1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Sixth Sense (Delay) vs Marker State

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Diphoration, Jan 14, 2020.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    To be very blunt, it wouldn't be the first time such a ruling was overturned by CB decree.

    Look, mate, I was of that notion that you're actively using Sixth Sense to create a specific instance of a delay with unique rules as well until I actually read through what @Diphoration wrote and compared it to the evidence at hand.

    You're using Sixth Sense, alright, but that's to unlock the ability to delay. None of the rules says you are allowed to ignore the part of the rules that say that when you delay against a camouflage marker you will lose your right to ARO if they don't reveal themselves. There is no "delay in this way" that IJW's explanation hinges on and frankly if we can add words like that to any rule we'd like we're opening Pandora's box.
     
  2. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2018
    Messages:
    3,071
    Likes Received:
    3,019
    And why exactly does the existence of a veto option with CB allow us to disregard ijw's rule calls wholesale? Yeah, he can be overriden by people above his paygrade. Nonetheless he's as close a link to the rules team as we can get here and his calls are considered official (unless specifically overriden).

    There's no words that say you are forced to take all the limitations into account and not treat it like ijw says we should either. This case of two sources of access to the same action / reaction is simply not resolved within the ruleset. That's why I said above it's a design issue.

    Nonetheless, with the lack of indication within the ruleset and ijw's indication that in fact those "paths" and their limitations should be considered separately, we're definitely not on the "take all limits into account" side of the fence.

    You're basically getting into ijw's and HellLois' shoes and making your own calls now.
     
  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    IJW is not the authority for rules, it is something some community members have decided. He's a respected member of the community, and if what he writes makes sense or if he indicates that they were directed to playtest the game in a certain way, then I see no problem with following his advice, but this does not mean we should not use our own intellect when someone makes a new argument and apply critical thinking.
    It also adds a great deal of appeal to me because the alternative way of looking at it (that a delay is a delay regardless of why you delayed) solves a glaring issue with the rules and makes them more consistent.

    Absofuckinglutely not, and I have to ask; is this a veiled attempt at an insult? Disagreeing and arguing with someone is not the same as making a claim from authority, you know. Btw, Helllois is the actual authority for the rules forums.

    I have put forth my arguments and will attempt to bow out. Should Helllois read this; please consider adding delays by Sixth Sense Trooper vs Camo to the FAQ? For anyone else; you can probably make up your mind yourself if you've made it this far.
     
    Mask and Diphoration like this.
  4. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2018
    Messages:
    1,349
    Likes Received:
    2,533
    I'm glad IJW cut in favour of a way to interpret the rule and I will gladly use that ruling our local tournaments (even if this is not the way I interpret the rule). Simply because I much prefer to have a cut and dry answer posted ont he forum where everyone who comes to our tournament can expect a consistency after searching on the forum.

    However (pun intended), the lengthy discussion goes to show that adding some clarity (which could be as simple as a couple words or a FAQ entry) on the wiki would go a long way in making this crystal clear in every community (especially those where people don't frequent the forum as much).
     
  5. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2018
    Messages:
    732
    Likes Received:
    876
    Sure? Then you can show me the single Delay rule?
    But there is none - there is a SSL1 rule, and a ARO vs Camo rule.
    And those seem to contradict each other.
    So you can either say "I can choose, as those rules allow me to do something (delay)."
    or you can say "No, you have to use both at once."

    I say "allow", because the ARO restriction from ARO vs Camo just restricts what it allows in comparison tonSSL1.

    And that you can't place a Mine as ARO has nothing to do with delay,
    but with a Camo Marker being in the Trigger Area...
     
    #45 daszul, Jan 16, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
    Nuada Airgetlam likes this.
  6. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2019
    Messages:
    2,213
    Likes Received:
    3,456
    It might be nice if the forum had a sticky post clarifying @ijw's role.

    That being said, I think @Diphoration nailed it. The reason @ijw has the authority to make rulings is simply that someone has to. Most of us aren't here to prove that our own interpretations are "correct" (whatever that would even mean). We're here to get an answer so that we know how to play. We want to know that the rules we apply in our local games are the same rules that a TO will apply at a tournament.

    I for one am happy to know that, absent an FAQ ruling, I can be confident that a TO will apply @ijw's ruling regardless of whether they personally agree with it.
     
  7. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    993
    Likes Received:
    1,529
    It Doesn't hurt that IJW probably has among the most experience with the game and the rules of anyone on the planet.
     
    daszul and Nuada Airgetlam like this.
  8. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2018
    Messages:
    3,071
    Likes Received:
    3,019
    Well, then you're making whatever is the inverse of the claim from authority, a claim of ijw's lack of authority. Which is still not your place to do, I think. I don't mean to insult you, however telling ijw and the rest of the thread that ijw's call is just his own interpretation and isn't binding, because "his calls were vetoed by CB studio crew before" is just about as much of poor form.

    That's why I've asked you kindly to take a step back and reassess again.

    The guys above have repeatedly described why there's no clear cut binary way of interpreting this set of rules. We can only choose and in doing that follow the guidance of both the most experienced (ijw) as well as the actual authors (HellLois).
     
  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    Then I also hope you realise that you are effectively censoring him from participating in the community as part of the community and you are also censoring him from providing feedback based on opinion because what he writes also has to be correct. It's a double edged sword and before you thrust anyone into that position consider what that means for someone who is a fan of the game and not a paid employee.

    That said, are you seriously saying here that we should never disagree with what someone in a position of authority says when that seems wrong and poorly motivated?

    Btw, Helllois is not the author, as you put it, he's a community manager. As far as I know, Helllois isn't allowed to make ad hoc decisions, but he's the one communicating what the game designer decides (Interruptor, was it?) is the correct course of action. Basically, what I'm saying is that what you're ascribing to IJW is actually what Helllois is paid to do (among other things, it's far from his primary job as far as I can tell).
     
    inane.imp and Mask like this.
  10. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    7,331
    Likes Received:
    14,817
    I'm a freelancer rather than a direct employee, but at the moment you're the one who's coming across as doing the censoring.

    As far as the rules issue is concerned, we're going to have to agree to disagree.
     
    Nuada Airgetlam likes this.
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    That is always the problem with challenging group think, (edit: though being of the minority opinion and without authority the only censorship I can engage in is self-censorship).

    Yes, we'll agree to disagree.
     
    #51 Mahtamori, Jan 17, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2020
  12. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2018
    Messages:
    1,349
    Likes Received:
    2,533
    It is a sub-clause. This means that the way to trigger Sixth Sense is being targeted by an attack, and that attack must be from an enemy inside your Zone of Control. So the cannot be used if the attack the trooper is suffering originates from outside of ZoC*.

    But even if it was not formulated in those terms, every requirements need to be met for a skill to be usesable. Unless it explicitely says something like "one of these must be true".

    The reason the Delay bullet point works is because it is explicitely defined in the examples. (Examples are treated as rules as much as actual rules in Infinity)
     
    #52 Diphoration, Jan 17, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2020
  13. Florian Hanke

    Florian Hanke Does not know how to stop building terrain.

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2019
    Messages:
    109
    Likes Received:
    92
    Just a quick note: *ZoC
     
  14. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2018
    Messages:
    1,349
    Likes Received:
    2,533
    Oops. Edited!
     
    Florian Hanke likes this.
  15. gorin

    gorin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2018
    Messages:
    89
    Likes Received:
    125
    I still cant get it all in my head. If all requirements need to be met for a skill to be usesable, why Chasseur can attack units in ZoC even without attack from them?
     
  16. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2018
    Messages:
    1,349
    Likes Received:
    2,533
    Because the examples don’t always follow the rules and add exceptions to the rules.

    The last sentence of “Example of Sixth Sense L1 vs a rear attack”, shows that when you delayed, even if the opponent did not attack, you get to do whatever you want.

    Now, the fact that this completely disregards the actual rules of the skill and the fact that we use a wording from an example that says “vs a rear attack” to get information about how to perform a delay versus a model that is not doing a rear attack... (neither in the rear nor doing an attack)

    Welcome to Infinity
     
    gorin likes this.
  17. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    7,331
    Likes Received:
    14,817
    Because (and only because) of the example saying it can. As mentioned up-thread, the delay clause should either have been listed outside the Effects, or had text saying that the attack Requirement doesn't apply to it.

    Note that if you have to apply the attack Requirement, the only way to ever delay is if the active trooper attacks you with their first Short Skill.
     
    Mahtamori, Diphoration and gorin like this.
  18. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2018
    Messages:
    1,349
    Likes Received:
    2,533
    How to figure out you can delay-shoot with your chasseur as a new player.

    1. Read Sixth Sense
    2. Wonder what delay means
    3. Read the examples to understand how delay works
    4. Realize that examples do not need to follow requirements and rules and are considered rules themselves by the ruleset
    5. Understand that you can do whatever ARO you want after delaying based on an example that only shows a specific case
    6. Figure out that applying the example works for your particular situations by disregarding the misleading title
    7. Enjoy your Chasseurs
     
  19. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    6,040
    Likes Received:
    7,177
    More likely:
    1. Play vs Ariadna
    2. Move within 8" of a Camo marker
    3. Have your opponent go 'I Delay with SSL1'
    4. Go: "OK... What does that mean"
    5. Your opponent explains precisely how fucked you are
    6. Either your opponent let's you take the Move back, or your trooper wears a LFT to the face
     
    Nuada Airgetlam likes this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation