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The definite N4 Comments, Suggestions, Ideas, wishlist's and Bugs that need fixing thread

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. deltakilo

    deltakilo Bear of Butcher bay
    Warcor

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    Also on link teams, honestly they are fine. Vanilla is crazy strong atm. There's alot of drawbacks to hauling a link around. The main one being it's very obvious where your threat is. Don't give it targets in active and in reactive it's always manageable.
     
    #1501 deltakilo, Dec 24, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2019
  2. LoganGarnett

    LoganGarnett Well-Known Member

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    Ok. I don't like how the Fireteams currently function. Why the hell only a single soldier does his job, while others rub his back and chill behind the corner in the Active? They are basically a deadweight.
    I'd rather see a slight overhaul of Fireteam bonuses:

    Three Members: Teamwork - if at least one other Fireteam Member has LoS to an Enemy Trooper and is not targetted by an Attack ARO, the Leader gains +1B to his BS Attacks. Otherwise, the Fireteam members targetted by an Attack ARO can make a B1 F2F BS Attack against an attacker or declare Dodge.
    Four Members: Members of the Fireteam gain SSL2 special rule against enemy Troopers inside other team members' LoF.
    Five Members: Suppressive Fire - If the enemy trooper is within LoF of at least two Fireteam Members, he recieves -3 MOD to his F2F rolls against that fireteam, unless he has V:Courage or Religious Troop special rules.

    Perhaps give the second part of this Three Member Bonus to Duo.
     
  3. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    Oof. Hard pass on this one for me mate, sorry.
     
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  4. darthchapswag

    darthchapswag Shandian Strike Team

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    I think this is where we reach the 'simulationist vs game' balance, or 'complexity vs depth'. Fireteams are representing everyone helping without getting into too complex an assessment of exactly who and how many can see what AROs. This simplicity should be maintained.

    That said, the 5-man +3BS can overpower some character wildcard options IMO (Sheskiin *cough*) so I'm intrigued instead by the option of giving out a -3BS .
    This would keep the FTF rolls in an interesting place while accurately reflecting how real life small team rapid fire can suppress an enemy.
     
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  5. LoganGarnett

    LoganGarnett Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, perhaps LoF requirements are too much, even if I want to give other members some identity during the Active turns and not just being dragged behind an actually useful soldier who uses them to somehow shoot better.
    But I'd really like to get rid of/limit SSL2 and replace +3BS mod with -3 ARO mod. Let Surprice Shot/Attack users have some way to deal with fireteams, because now the fireteams don't only ignore the Surprise element, but also have better stats than Camo Troopers due to bonuses, not to mention Fireteams that can include MSVs.
     
  6. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    "Save type: none" sounds like no save at all, while it is an ARM save,
    which points to something that I deem most important and your list misses to address:
    How to combine save types?

    I'd love the possibility to make up more combinations
    (at a cost, like SWC, disposable, etc...),
    while keeping it manageable and understandable.
    Like, what about AP Breaker, or Viral EXP...?
     
  7. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    I know it looks a bit confusing, but that's because you're trying to read it like the existing rules. Maybe it's not the best way to say this, but the idea is to denote that ammo type does not cause a save itself, it's a save modifier.

    > How to combine save types?
    This is exactly what my suggestion is trying to address. The save attribute used for combining different ammo types is derived from the ammo family (there is a disambiguation in the beginning). So in case of combining different ammo types you just combine their ammo families and effects. If it's two different ammo families, the result will be you rolling both save types, and if it's two ammo families or the same type, then you only roll that save type. All the effects are combined separately, which means you no longer have to guess what to do -- just add apples to apples and oranges to oranges.
     
    #1507 n21lv, Dec 24, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2019
    Florian Hanke likes this.
  8. Sedral

    Sedral Jīnshān Task Force Officier

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    I'm pretty sure CB could change the stealth rule to let it do what the change facing baiting does. Like, "if at the end of your first short move you're inside the ZOC of an ennemy but out of his LoF, you can make a second move and end-up in LoF or in contact without triggering any ARO from that ennemy".

    However, completely removing ARO baiting from the game would require a bigger overhaul of the ARO mechanic. I'm still in favor of the "if you had an opportunity to ARO but decided to ignore it, you only lose the right to declare those ARO options but can declare any new one that might have become available after the second short skill". It would also fix defensive hacking programs at the same time.
     
    #1508 Sedral, Dec 24, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2019
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  9. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    No biggie :D

    I love the ARO, I love the skirmish format, but the current Fireteams just annoy me - both playing them and facing them. But like I said, that's personal preference. Doing away with the +3 mod and adjusting them, like suggested above for example, might just do the trick, too.

    For the time being I'll have to live with them and learn to deal with them on current terms :)
     
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  10. deltakilo

    deltakilo Bear of Butcher bay
    Warcor

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    Absolutely would be ok with something to this effect.
     
  11. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    That's pretty elegant actually. Sharp nerf to a bunch of melee tactics, but anything we talk about doing to limit ARO manipulation will be. I like this one.
     
  12. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    This is one from the Tohaa thread but I wanted to repost it here: change symbiomates to just give +1 wound and nothing else.

    It's super clean, it fixes all the hard feelings issues with past and present symbiomates, it a scales with tohaa unit weight (which is an issue right now, current mates are weaker on the already-bad heavy tohaa units) and it tracks easily.

    I'd probably pair this with removing the fire vulnerability rule just because fire is already the perfect ammo type against high-wound, low-armour models, but yeah. Really loved this proposed change.
     
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  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I don't think that's powerful enough for what CB wants for SymbioMates, unfortunately.
     
  14. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    How about this then, +1W, but a bit better.

    Symbiomate - after the attack is fully resolved, should a trooper with an assigned Symbiomate fall into Inactive Symbiont Armour state, Unconscious state or Dead state, the Symbiomate is sacrificed, removed from play and the trooper immediately receives +1 Wound, placing them into Inactive Symbiont Armour state from Dead / Unconscious or Active Symbiont Armour from Inactive Symbiont Armour.

    Basically an automatically successful Doctor heal once you hit Dead / Unconscious / Inactive Symbiont. Works with Dogged and NWI if need be, but no Symbiont Tohaa have that to date (just Symbiobeasts). Doesn't need any immunities or vulnerabilities. Actually fluffy, a boost to the Symbiont Armour, another layer of defense, which is already required for a Symbiomate.

    Linear boost both to multiwound and single wound models. Effectively a better AutoMediKit [http://infinitythewiki.com/en/AutoMediKit].
     
    #1514 Nuada Airgetlam, Dec 26, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2019
  15. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    There's... no actual difference between what you posted, and having +1W.
     
  16. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    How Overkill is treated is the difference.

    If you do 4 wounds vs an Ectross (W2 + 1) it goes Unc and ends up as Inactive Symbio Armour.
    If you do 4 wounds for a Sakiel (W1 + 1) it goes Dead and ends up as Inactive Symbio Armour.

    Whereas as simply +1 Wound the result is Inactive Symbio Armour for the Ectross and UNC for the Sakiel.

    So it's both more complicated than +1 W AND disproportionately benefits units with lower wounds and lower ARM.
     
  17. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    So, I've been mulling this over for a while: how to make ARM (and AP type weapons) more relevant?

    This is how I think that can be achieved.

    1. Reduce all Weapons* DAM by 3.
    * Except where it's based on Phys (certain other weapons may need specific adjustments to fit their role as well, but the general principle holds)

    2. Cover no longer grants a +3 ARM/BTS bonus.

    3. Because Impetuous is no longer as significant a penalty reduce the discount Frenzy / Impetuous / Extremely Impetuous units get.

    Because this is a change to an absolutely core mechanic there will be a mass of second and third order effects. But principally it's a nerf to Template Weapons of all types (but most particularly DTWs and Spec Fire as most Impact Template Weapons have alternative fire-modes that do more damage to a single target but largely go unused because of the Cover Bonus).
     
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  18. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    I might've explained it poorly, but the point is that you won't ever get one-shot, whether Shock, Fire, Overkill or whatever else.

    You're a burning Ectros or Neema and assume you keep burning:
    - lose 1W from main profile, burn
    - lose 1W from main profile, burn
    - lose 1W from 2nd profile, Unconscious state

    If you had a simple +1W, you'd probably keep burning and die. Instead:
    - Attack is fully resolved, you're in Null state (Unconscious)
    - Symbiomate is triggered and 1W is healed
    - you're at 1W 2nd profile instead of dead / unconscious

    Also, multiple hits? You get hit by a 5-dice linked HMG, all dice hit, your F2F roll stops none of them, you get 5 Wounds. You're a Dead Ectros. You'd be Dead even if you had 3W on main profile. Here though, you're saved and left on 1W 2nd profile, because Symbiomate triggers on Null state.
     
  19. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    Yes and no, because you can also use the Symbiomate I described to get back from taking 1W and dropping into Inactive, back into Active. Or keep going with the model and use it to prolong his life a bit later, once he hits Dead/Unc state. Gives you a bit of a tactical decision which is completely missing now.

    Like I said slightly better than straight +1W.
     
  20. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    Isn't that a HUGE boost to bikes? Way too huge, making their main disadvantage irrelevant?
     
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