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All Glory for the State Empire

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Proletarian, Nov 25, 2019.

  1. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Like, the reputation of this particular forum is that it is an absolute fucking shitshow. I'm sure that people all think they've been entirely reasonable and not responsible for that at all, but let's be honest, that isn't the case. The reputation exists for a reason and at least part of that is a total lack of respect people have on this board for other people's gaming experience. There's no attempt to engage with honesty and politely, it's all an attempt to discredit the validity of their right to have an opinion.

    That's not good. It's bad. If you just started playing and came on this forum you'd run a mile. And I'll hold my hands up, I've taken the piss plenty myself, in a way which I felt was deserved but also didn't contribute towards a good healthy community. But people stubbornly will insist that slagging off other players is perfectly fine and reasonable in their quest to prove the weakness of IA or whatever (which is inherently ridiculous cos its a fucking game but whatever) and that is not really okay.
     
  2. deltakilo

    deltakilo Bear of Butcher bay
    Warcor

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    Well done @Proletarian on the win.

    Its a shame to see some try and bring other people and communities down with negative comments.

    But i appreciate your thoughts and the time took to put them down in words for our benefit.

    I personally think "power" in infinity is fairly arbitrary for the most part. The lethality in infnity is the great balancing mechansim that protects the game from alot of issues i see in other games. Outside the top 5 percent and the bottom 5 percent, the divide between armies/units doesnt feel significant about to fight over.
     
  3. osoi

    osoi Well-Known Member

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    Being the Varuna player in question I completely stuffed the game up on my end and made a myriad of errors, some small and some large that Proletarian capitalized on swiftly and decisively. It was easily my worst performance of the event. I misdeployed everything but the Zulus and I forgot ZoC jam AROs when I had models move within their ZoC because they were in a building so I couldnt be easily reminded that they were there, these sort of mistakes happen at the end of a long event so I chalk it up to experience learned for me.

    The big issue for me in Unmasking is that I wasnt running many specialists and they were targetted with extreme predjudice so limited what my options were in response. It is something that many people dont realise is a big weakness for Varuna, the jammers are great but not specialists and the only midfield specialist you have are the moderately expensive Croc Man who when facing up against a Rui Shi and core linked Haidao MSV2 sniper who was locking down most of the board really limited my options.
     
  4. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

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    Do you mean Varuna has a hard time putting specialists on the table in general? Or just that the Croc man is the only choice outaide of the DZ?
     
  5. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Wow in a way that's an excellent summation of my experience of Proletarians play style from the one time I played him too. He spots and exploits mistakes his opponents make so decisively it makes you feel like you're playing really poorly. Really I think he is just playing well and bringing your mistakes home to you in a way another player might not. Or at least thinking that way makes me feel better ;)

    It's an excellent experience IMHO because exposure to it gave me an excellent opportunity to consider how I could sharpen my play :)
     
    #65 Hachiman Taro, Nov 28, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2019
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  6. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    The irony of your complaint is I'm one of the more moderate people on IA, I don't like them alot because of the unrealised potential on several units (shang ji, etc), but I also think the faction as a whole better than many people think because I find the community has the MO problem with them where they steadfastly refuse to leverage the Light Infantry link available.

    My real issue here lies with trying to portray bad data as proof.
     
    #66 Triumph, Nov 28, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2019
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  7. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    I think the irony of his complaint is that you think his problem isn't your problem, when it is.

    If you don't think alienating the community of people who play your game through the way you express yourself is the problem, then that's it's own problem IMHO.
     
  8. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    That's a good point though. I think there's some crossed wires where people who don't like how IA play don't like people who are more focussed on whether they can be competitive saying they're fine. They can be fine in one way and not in another though. Wanting the HI superhero faction to not need a LI link is fair enough.
     
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  9. Obeisance

    Obeisance Well-Known Member

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  10. osoi

    osoi Well-Known Member

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    I do think Varuna struggles getting specialists where they need to be. You can easily fall into the trap of building a nice big castle defense that is very difficult to crack which can lock a lot of the table down but find you are very strapped for points to actually push and do things. It has been something I have been working on this year to improve with
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure Varuna builds "towers" in context of Invincible Army ;)
    Varuna plays a lot more similar to Dahshat than Invincible Army, where Dahshat trades the competency of the Kamau and Helots for access to smoke and McMurrough, and above all else a much cheaper fireteam starting at only 72/1.5 for a minimal Fusilier link with a Kamau sniper, the opportunity to make use of alternate attack sources should be plenty. By comparison, building IA similarly as has been suggested in this thread is 81/1.5, not massively greater, but loses out on Mimetism in order to gain slightly higher ARM and the possibility to keep acting when wounded.
    Depending on player a bit, I often face something like this:

    Varuna Immediate Reaction Division
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    FUSILIER Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    ORC Feuerbach / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 42)
    FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    KAMAU (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 32)
    TRAUMA-DOC Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    MACHINIST (Varuna Div.) (CH: Mimetism, Stealth, Aquatic Terrain) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 17)
    PATSY GARNETT Submachine Gun, Nimbus Plus Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 37)
    KAMAU HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 28)
    ZULU-COBRA (Sensor) Combi Rifle, Jammer / Assault Pistol, Knife. (0 | 29)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]1 [​IMG]5
    WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)
    ZULU-COBRA (Sensor) Combi Rifle, Jammer / Assault Pistol, Knife. (0 | 29)
    HELOT MILITIAMAN Submachine Gun, Light Rocket Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 9)
    HELOT MILITIAMAN Submachine Gun, Light Rocket Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 9)
    HELOT MILITIAMAN Submachine Gun, Light Rocket Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 9)
    TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)

    6 SWC | 299 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Many people around here absolutely refuses to play the Tech-bee so that's actually creative liberty of mine, but with this archetype you're playing a slimmed and more focused version of Invincible Army that has good ARO presence. The Feuerbach is there to provide ARO opportunities for when the opponent sticks down White Noise and after dedicating myself to O-12 lately I must say that it works quite fine, not to mention it gets real damned swingy on luck rolls. Typically the benefit of this list archetype is that the strong ARO pieces aren't all that costly and they're fairly decent at suppressing opponent ARO so moving forward with the Fireteam gets relatively easy.
    Yes, that's a Machinist with nothing to repair, don't ask me, not what I'd stick in there but I see it fairly often when Patsy forms a Haris. I've also seen variations with a second Kamau replacing the Machinist.

    Varuna Immediate Reaction Division
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    FUSILIER Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    ORC Feuerbach / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 42)
    FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    KAMAU (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 32)
    TRAUMA-DOC Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    ZULU-COBRA (Sensor) Combi Rifle, Jammer / Assault Pistol, Knife. (0 | 29)
    ZULU-COBRA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Breaker Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 28)
    CROC MAN (Minelayer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 31)
    CROC MAN (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 32)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]1 [​IMG]4
    WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)
    ZULU-COBRA (Sensor) Combi Rifle, Jammer / Assault Pistol, Knife. (0 | 29)
    HELOT MILITIAMAN Submachine Gun, Light Rocket Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 9)
    HELOT MILITIAMAN Submachine Gun, Light Rocket Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 9)
    HELOT MILITIAMAN Submachine Gun, Light Rocket Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 9)

    5.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army


    The winner of our tournament last weekend used this list against me - or something very much like it. Unfortunately I didn't have very good opportunities to deploy Cuervo (whom proved to be an utter disappointment both times I used him) and Stealth* really saved the Orc trooper from my Hacker - one of the reasons why I think IA need to prioritize getting a Shang-Ji AHD into their Core. After flunking an ARO opportunity against the Kamau sniper using my TR REM that I shouldn't have set up for, I more or less let the opponent's Datatracker Crocman FO murder my HVT because I had prioritized setting up the Siriusbot in the perfect protected spot instead of the HVT, which left the Sirius open to long-range potshots from said Crocman.
    Now, that mission was Transmission Matrix, so not much button pushing going on, but he didn't really have great problems pushing his specialists upfield once he'd cleared the couple of ARO opportunities I had. Against an IA list these would've been fewer and made it easier to push them up should the mission have required it, but the dynamic had been very different in that IA does have a stronger active turn - if a lot more focused in a smaller area with a more predictable attack path.

    This leads to my second theory of IA, and possibly Varuna, which is "why not use the great REMs we have more?". Bulletteers mess me up most of the time. It's like a Rui Shi that carries its smoke area with it at no order cost against most units, or more specifically against the units that you want to use these two to hunt down, with the added benefit that Sixth Sense does very little.
    My problem with using them in IA is that that's when you run out of points and you've just locked yourself up pretty hard with little room for variation.

    InfoSec 3.0
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    HǍIDÀO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26)
    SHÀNG JÍ Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0.5 | 43)
    SON-BAE Yaókòng Smart Missile Launcher / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 18)
    ZÚYǑNG Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 30)
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Duo, Tactical Awareness) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1.5 | 38)
    RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 20)
    MECH-ENGINEER Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    LÙ DUĀN Mk12, Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)
    WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)
    WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]2 [​IMG]1
    Zhanshi YĪSHĒNG Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    DĀOYĪNG Lieutenant L2 Hacker (Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 29)
    WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)

    5.5 SWC | 299 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    There is some variation to do here, but not much. If you try and get a Haidao in there you'll need to bump that Son-Bae down to a Panggo and one of the Weibing down to a Chaiyi, which reduces your sniffer game a lot not to mention that a Son-Bae is actually pretty damned hard-core when you get Marksmanship on it while in that Fireteam. But you gain an MSV sniper. Worth noting is that the KHD and AHD can't ARO at the same time, which is a huge bummer, the AHD is actually a beast for hacking as long as the Tinbot lives, but I do have a history of flunking my burst 1 rolls so when Toadchild's dice roller tells me failure rate is less than 2 times out of 10, in reality it's more like 9 times out of 10.

    Yes, the second order group with two orders in it is important. While this means going first will lose two orders, it also means going second you can take a couple of losses. IA lists tend to be card houses that fall like a sack of shit if you lose a single unit otherwise.

    No, you can't remove the Lu Duan, it's important. Lu Duan is your only chance to handling repeaters safely since IA can't get Light Grenade Launchers on anything competent.

    I do think there's a few more ways of making IA work effectively that's a bit more outside the box, but generally speaking since most of them revolve around making use of solo models, vanilla will probably do a better job since there are no IA-only profiles for Hac Tao and Hulang simply works better in a more camo-rich environment, not to mention that MadTraps and Minelayers and actually competent melee units will slow down melee hail-Marys.

    * It's off by one point, but I can't remember in detail what's wrong. There might've been only two Helots because I also remember there being at least one FO Fusilier
     
  12. Janzerker

    Janzerker Well-Known Member

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    IIRC a second Kamau replacing the machinist is the only viable option for that Haris. Remind your opponent that if Patsy is the one forming the Haris then it counts as an Orc haris, therefore Varuna machinist can't join as they are only allowed to do it in Kamau links.
     
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  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I'm 95% certain the fault is with my list and not with my opponents, I am most likely remembering a Fireteam from before the FAQ.
     
  14. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

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    How does the Lu Duan handel a repeater?
     
  15. Musterkrux

    Musterkrux Well-Known Member

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    My guess is that Holo2 lets you get closer to a hidden Repeater before copping a Hacking ARO. Either they Hold or ARO against one of your three Holo Echoes, running the risk of getting the wrong one.
     
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  16. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Once the Lu Duan is in range of the enemy repeater you can safely Blackout it with your own hackers.

    DepReps are often better for this but Holo2 is what IA have.
     
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  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You can also place the Lu Duan just outside the Repeater area and activate HoloEcho state to get it inside the zone without provocing AROs and then when your reactive turn starts you use the Holoecho special activation to get it out of dodge. It's not fool proof, but against small repeater networks where each Repeater is critical or opponents with bad luck on their Pitchers, it's a clutch.

    I still think IA's complete lack of means to indirectly deal with threats is what's killing the sectorial. It's a fairly high floor, but also low ceiling army. Very newbie friendly.
     
  18. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Not going to bother reading a lot of the other comments, but congrats on the tournament!

    Those lists are a lot way from what I usually build (aside from the Daoying, all HI and REM), but if they're working for you I'm not going to argue.

    26 players is about 4x the size of the local Infinity community for me.
     
  19. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    I think something to remember is that Infinity is a game thats, for the most part, simple to play but very difficulty to master. Just because you are playing a top tier tier army doesn't mean your sure to win like in some other big name games. A few key mistakes can still cost you the game.
     
  20. Fathoym

    Fathoym Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    @Proletarian I shamelessly poached your Tai Sheng list for my second ever game with Yu Jing. I was pleasantly surprised with how well the Haris performed, especially the KHD Haidao.

    I wish Tai Sheng had an SWC weapon of some sort though, playing with so few SWC seems weird to me. No bad, just outside my wheelhouse.
     
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