Rough estimate. SMG profile: 33 38 points (because of how fucked up FD2 costs on HI seem to be) Combi profile: 49 points I don't think per se you made the Combi profile that much better. It is true that the sectorial needs those MadTraps, but I don't think this Hulang is competent enough to be worth more than two Gangbusters. However, that's weird less-lethal police enforcement crap. I'd expect Minelayer or CrazyKoalas on a military unit. A Mono CCW isn't quite as costly as it was in N2, but I think people's expectations still live on with those expectations, and the increase in PH to make that DA CCW perform marginally close to the Mono CCW far exceeds the cost savings. That SMG profile, though. Pure gold and I actually think the sectorial could greatly benefit from having a Wildcard door-and-or-face-kicker, particularly one that can potentially grossly shift odds in CQC via Mimetism. "Small price increase" is 4 or 5 points prior to Stun Grenades. I get why the Hulang is faffing about with E/M grenades in order to deal with high-tech equipment, but I don't understand why Invincible Army would be using less-lethal equipment like Stun Grenades.
So, slightly tangential, but my unit is very CQB focused and we use flash crash (stun grenades) heavily due to overpressure or shrapnel going through bulkheads from frag grenades. The fluff of the Hulang suggests a unit having similar requirements. So, I can totally see a justification for a lethal door kicker unit using stun grenades. It's pretty common in real life.
Bulkheads... you navy? I can totally understand why you don't want frag grenades in urban or navy settings, but this is a sectorial deployed in jungles far from bulkheads. I don't have a problem with Hulang having more exotic or weirder grenades, since they're a bit of a weird unit to begin with, it's the heavily armoured ground infantry that I find it weird that their single grenade user is carrying Stun Grenades. No one has a grenade launcher and no one is issued HE or frag grenades for jungle fighting.
Marines but aye. I could have sworn I read something about them being tunnel fighters but totally possible I dreamt that up I do get your point on the grenades though, definitely a gaping void in the army's equipment and capability.
How about changing it to a FD1 1.9W MI, like Lei Gong? That should cut our costs drastically, while providing only benefits. CB already did it with Lei Gong, which means the fluff distinction of 'heavy infantry' is pretty pointless anyway, especially if it's only going to provide penalties.
I don't know what a HI would pay for FD1, but Hilang absolutely pays a very, very, significantly larger amount for FD2 than Kanren et al does. Lei Gong is not HI, so for Lei Gong either level of FD should be 1 point.
So it just occured to me... If I ever wanted to try a Vanilla list and support the Hulang with Monks... Then I wouldn't even use the Hulang because much to my surprise there's actually already a much better, non-hackable, Hulang already released. I'm sorry but there's nothing in this game that would ever compel me to pick a Hulang over Hawkwood... and that's just sad.
@Mahtamori To answer your question directly, yes. However, I’d be willing to pay the same as he is now as long as he was PH14. I had great results with a Shikami Dodging 4” at a time, while milking negative mods. Greatly improves their survivability and would make their E/M grenades actually work. Also, I know this has been mentioned many times now but he is simply not worth it without Smoke Grenades. The Shikami can barely manage with overwhelming CC + ODD and the Oniwaban with TO + Surprise Attack. Mimitism is worth shit for what they expect him to do. He suffers for being a horrible amalgamation of a unit that’s trying to fix a hole left by the Shikami while simultaneously trying to fill the gap left by the Oniwaban, and he ends up pleasing neither. It upsets me because I’m one of those freaks that actually miss the Shikami. YJ vanilla actually had a large secondary pool to support him, while simultaneously bringing your Rambo pieces, so it just disappoints me that much more when a unit comes to do the same thing, just doesn’t perform.
hawkwood needs to loot panoply first to be able to hit AC2 (multipistol is just no) but he is good for direct shooting on the way yeah
Zhencha, Liu Xing, Krakot, Kendrat, Hac Tao, Crane Rank, Ninja. These are all units I'd much rather prefer to destroy an AC2 with, as they actually bring something to the game while being more than just a vessel that exists only to destroy AC2, while also giving him a massive marker over his head.
Krakots yes, they are optimal but they get focused really quickly Zhencha and Liu Xing hit console on 12s which is bad Crane is a straight up bad unit for vanilla Hac Tao is a good choice but as a fallback plan, ie "luckily has a DA sword"
Ok, I need some explanations there. What is the big difference that would instantly deprecate the Hulang? Both are in the 40-45 pts range, Hawkwood has access to a Red Fury (but pays 1SWC for it, so that's fair). BS13 Red Fury > BS12 Combi, for sure. But Martial Arts L3 > Martial Arts L1. Ok, the Hulang is hackable but thanks to Martial Arts this is somehow mitigated in active turn. And Hulang can make use of the Fwd Deployment to maximise its damage if you go first (if you go second, you'll probably be much less agressive in the positioning). Then the weapon loadout is a bit different, but Multi Pistol is not so much a game changer as I expect it to be much more efficient against the same kind of target than the E/M nades, am I wrong? What I mean is: I don't see what makes the Hulang such a garbage according to the general feedback when I compare it to Hawkwood. Is Hawkwood also bullied like an ugly and fat boy in primary school? If yes, why? thos profiles look OK to me (both Hulang and Hawkwood) - though not obvious to make a great return on investment, there are some cases where I can see them work fine.
@Stuffist Well, first of all, rangebands of both the K1MMR and the RF are much better, which is a huge deal in a game that's about shooting first (which is also why the BS13 is a better increase). Furthermore WIP14 is also a better tool for DTW + Intuitive Attack (which I use fairly often and also the reason I love WIP14 on Tiger Soldiers). Stealth against hackable doesn't really solve the issue that much because the worst part is if you're in close range and attack something (or make any roll at all), you get hacked, which is quite often a problem when you're near enemy DZ, filled with Repeaters in the form of Flash Pulse bots and Baggage bots. As for the Forward Deployment, remember that Hawkwood is MI so he gets FD1 for free, and along with better rangebands, this more than compensates for the difference between FD1 vs FD2. As a minor nitpick, against Viral Ammo, the Hulang gets to eat a dick and die after 1 failed BTS roll, meanwhile Hawkwood gets to ignore that and gets very tanky against AP/Viral Mines, Shock MMR and Red Fury. I'm not trying to sell Hawkwood as the next best thing and he's hardly auto-include in any way shape or form, but if you compare him to a Hulang and you had to chose either one, then there's simply no real reason to pick the Hulang over Hawkwood. Lastly, I know that MA3 is better than MA1, but it's only really noticeable against enemies who can fight. As long as you stick to HI/LI/TAG/REM who have garbage CC stats, then Hawkyboi has ~60,5% chance to kill his target while a Hulang using MA3 is ~67%. This is hardly an increase that's worthwhile compared to what you're giving up.
For me it's about the range of his guns. He gets +3 in the 8-12 band, then has FDL1 for being MI. Then, if going after the right targets you'll be in their -3 range. Then add his own Mimetisim. I've found the Hulang, due to his short weapons, his mimetisim means little because he's in the enemy +3 range. On average I get into zero CC. So no big there. For killing TAGs and HI I have the K1. On missions i need a Specialist I can take him but on missions are about killing specialists i'll avoid that and do the killing instead. If the Hulang even had a basic marksman rifle, I'd take him!
It's not just about the range band I think: it has a better gun (with better burst), is a better shooter that doesn't care about hacking and the difference beetween units with different levels of Martial Arts is negligible. The real difference is having some level of MA vs not having it. It's just my opinion though, but I believe that Hulangs are really expensive and not great at anything. He can't really shoot better than other 40ish point Yu Jing units and he alone lacks the ability to close gaps reliably to get those points into CC monofilament fights. And in IA he doesn't even get access to good support units that help him do it. I love the idea, I really do, and I've tried him a lot, especially as a Data Tracker (since he is not in a marker state, has FD2, mimetism, a direct template and CC prowess)... But even with all that, he can't do much alone. I've brainstormed about different options to aid him, from giving him 6-2 to help with cautious mov to getting Hyperdynamics for engages without giving him good spec fire or even smoke grenades... But I'm not sure any of those options is correct, and I can't blame CB for not doing something about it yet because I can't figure it out myself so that would be hypocritical. I just hope if/when he gets changes, he can do something more than "ok-ish".
Well, thanks guys. I did not use intensively the Hulang yet, so don't have a representative panel of experiences with it (and never played Hawkwood). Still it seems to me that both are close enough to be in the "I wish I took the other profile" range from one game to another, depending on if you need a better gun or some E/M nades + D-Charges.
IMHO, FD2 looks odd in this unit in spite of making him more expensive because of current tax suffered by the skill in HIs. What this unit really needs is becoming a wildcard and preferably getting frenzy. I know nowadays everybody wants to be a wildcard but this unit really do needs it. Automatically it would help many links by adding the flexibility of having a CC specialist that could act as deterrent against units wanting to engage IA links as well as add extra punch to help links storm closed positions. And in return the Hulang would get the added infowar protection it lacks at current as well as link buffs. According to the background they were created as an assault unit for combat in closed instances but unfortunately they don't perform as such at moment. That role of going solo as assassin unit doesn't fit the Hulang with its current profile. In order to perform as such then the unit would need a marker state (limited camo would be enough) or smoke grenades. calling @Daixomaku because he really needs to read this thread.
