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Can Mines stop other Mines from detonating?

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by paraelix, Dec 11, 2019.

  1. paraelix

    paraelix Seed Embryo Scholar

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    2 Mines are placed flush with a wall. An enemy troop approaches from Mine 1's side, flush with the wall. Mine 1 has a clear, unblocked template path to the enemy, so will detonate. Mine 2's template would cross the silhouette of Mine 1's camo marker, would this prevent it from detonating?

    Alternately, an enemy crawls prone and draws LoF to both mines - mine 1 has a clear and unobstructed path to the target, but mine 2 can only reach the enemy with the longest part of the teardrop, necessitating that it's blast also touch the friendly mine - would this still trigger or would the friendly deployable stop the blast? If there is a question of the friendly mine being removed "first", would it matter if it was another piece of equipment being clipped; like a repeater or dazer?
     
    #1 paraelix, Dec 11, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2019
  2. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    You can’t invent sequencing. If you have, for instance, two mines that trigger by the same order, they both go off at the same time.

    Unfortunately, even though the one mine can’t actually hit the other one by doing so, putting the other mine’s camo marker’s S2 silhouette in the blast volume qualifies as attacking it. So the mine can’t do it.

    As far as I understand it, this is legal:
    1. Active trooper can see a camo marker and hidden by smoke past the marker is a trooper. The active trooper declares intuitive attack against the camo marker, getting the smoke obscured trooper in the volume but not including the camo marker’s base in the volume. (The attacker needed to fire from up higher to get the secondary target, or there was the ubiquitous ACME Low Wall that mines hide behind in these examples.)
    2. Secondary target does ARO stuff.
    At resolution, the camo marker is fine, and the mine takes no hit. The intuitive attack roll gets applied against the secondary target.

    And that scenario working means it was a fair shot, and if it’s a fair shot you’re trying shoot through the camo marker part of the silhouette.
     
  3. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    If your intuitive attack is against the Camo Marker and does not hit the actual unit (mine's base, not the projected S2) it would fail.

    "Q: What happens when a Direct Template Weapon in ARO misses the target because it’s out of range? Does it affect the other troops inside the Template or does it get cancelled?
    A: The Attack is cancelled.
    Related Pages: BS Attack, ARO, Direct Template Weapon"
     
  4. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    A mine is cancelled if...

    http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/Mines
    "A Mine never triggers if the Small Teardrop Template also affects an ally, even if that ally is Unconscious."

    What is "an ally"? As far as I know,"ally" is never defined in the rules...

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Game_Elements:_Terminology_and_Alignment
    However, "Friendly" is defined in the rules as follows:
    "Friendly. Troopers that belong to the player's Army List, or to those of a team mate, or team mates if the game is played in pairs or groups."

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Game_Elements:_Terminology_and_Alignment
    and "Troopers" are defined as follows:
    "Trooper. Game element with a Troop Profile, which belongs to the Army List of any player, capable of spending Orders as well as declaring and receiving Attacks."

    - - - - -

    ALSO... When in doubt, let's compare the Spanish and the English wiki!

    http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/es/Minas
    "Una Mina no detonará si dentro de su Zona de Detonación se encuentra una tropa aliada, aunque ésta se halle incluso en estado Inconsciente."
    or
    "A Mine will not detonate if an Allied troop is within its Detonation Zone , even if it is even in an Unconscious state ."

    In Spanish, it adds the precision of "troop", which was implied in english due to the "even if that ally is Unconscious." (only troopers can be unconscious)

    If we wanted more confirmations, mines are considered "Direct Template Weapons" as per this line.
    "As a Direct Template Weapon, when a Mine triggers it places a Small Teardrop Template with Damage 13 and Shock Special Ammunition."

    And the cancellation clause of Direct Template Weapons is very clear that it is cancelled on "Troopers"
    "It is not allowed to declare Attacks against friendly or Neutral troopers. So, if the player declares an Attack with a Template weapon that affects a friendly or Neutral trooper, then that shot is considered null (But not any other shot of the same Burst with no Civilian or Neutral troopers affected by a Template). All those troops who were affected by the nullified shot can still declare ARO."
    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Templ...ate_weapons_and_friendly_and_Neutral_troopers

    - - - - -

    By my reading and unstanding, I do not think a mine would be cancelled by another mine being in its trigger area.
     
    Florian Hanke likes this.
  5. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Historically, mines were not canceled by each other in N1/N2. To the best of my knowledge, that interaction has not changed.
     
    Diphoration likes this.
  6. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    Have you seen the partial list of errors in the rules concerning the object classifications (trooper, model, etc.)? Even just things like 'enemy' in the specifier for BS Attack and CC Attack when you stop and try to attack scenery.

    FFS, according to the template rules you can only roll to hit troopers.
    • The Template only applies its effect on each affected trooper if the Attack Roll is successful.
    And before you get started, see the Katyusha MRL with the trait list: Anti-materiel, Impact Template (Circular), Non-Lootable, Speculative Fire
    for both regular and Guided mode. Or just the regular old Missile Launcher.

    A blast template weapon with the Anti-material trait, when template weapons are only specified to affect troopers.

    Given those mistakes, what do you think the odds are that anything that's not a trooper are supposed to be immune to templates?
     
  7. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    I think you read what I say completely wrong. Especially if the only thing you quoted was the preface sentence that I then explain what it probably means based on the spanish wording of the same sentence.

    I'm not saying that troopers are supposed to be immune to templates. This is absurd, it's quite the opposite actually.

    I'm saying that things that are not troopers might not actually cancel templates, because mines are not troopers and the only thing that cancel a template is a friendly or neutral trooper.
     
  8. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    Oops, accidentally double posted.
     
  9. SpectralOwl

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    By that definition of Trooper, AI Beacons and G:Sync units are entirely immune to templates and don't stop Mines as well...
     
  10. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    AI Beacons and G:Sync are different things.

    No, nowhere did I say that non-troopers are immune to templates. I actually said the opposite.

    AI Beacon are "Deployable Equipment" as per this sentence
    "The bearer of the AI Beacon is considered a piece of Deployable Equipment, and not a trooper. It cannot be activated by Orders or AROs."
    http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/AI_Beacon

    And if you look here...

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Game_Elements:_Terminology_and_Alignment
    You can see that Deployable piece of equipment and Deployable weapon both say that they "This element may also be designated as a target and receive Attacks." and "is capable of performing and receiving Attacks."

    They definately can be hit by mines, but RAW, they do not stop the mine from going off.
     
  11. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    As for G:Sync, you can see in the description of the skill that they are considered as trooper. The word trooper is used a dozens of type to refer to them.

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Ghost_(G)#Ghost:_Synchronized

    So enemies can be hit by the templates, and friendly can cancel the templates.
     
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  12. SpectralOwl

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    Despite this making sense, the fact that still needed three wiki references demonstrating the exceptions to the definition provided for "Trooper" really makes me hope they get this "words" business figured out for N4. At least I know I can stack mines on corners now and not waste all but one!
     
    Section9 likes this.
  13. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    You and everyone else playing!

    I would actually be happy if the entire set of changes to N3 was defining and using keywords.
     
    Sabin76 likes this.
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