Greetings! I have a new rule interaction that I heard about and I did some digging and would like to know what you guys think. (Every quoted rules in my post are taken from this page) http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Template_Weapons_and_Equipment - - - - - FIRST SITUATION I have a trooper with a light-shotgun facing an enemy trooper. (the situation would also be the same with a rocket launcher) >I declare a BS Attack, placing down the template as shown on the image. >My opponent declares their ARO (Shoot for example) >I declare Move, moving behind the enemy trooper, into the blast template that I previously placed down. As far as I understand, templates affect everyone who moved through them during the order as everything happening during the Order is simultaneous. So, the template, now affecting a friendly trooper (myself) would now be cancelled and my opponent shoots me unopposed. "It is not allowed to declare Attacks against friendly or Neutral troopers. So, if the player declares an Attack with a Template weapon that affects a friendly or Neutral trooper, then that shot is considered null (But not any other shot of the same Burst with no Civilian or Neutral troopers affected by a Template). All those troops who were affected by the nullified shot can still declare ARO." - - - - - SECOND SITUATION Now, to a situation that happens quite often with troopers that have high CC and impact template weapons, such as the Fiday and the Speculo... >I declare a BS Attack, placing down the template as shown on the image. >My opponent declares their ARO (Shoot for example) >I move into BtB with my opponent. I am now engaged with my opponent, so the template affecting my opponent is also affecting me. "Template Weapons that affect at least one trooper engaged in a Close Combat affect all troopers in that Close Combat, even if some of them are not in direct contact with the Template. Bear in mind that troopers cannot declare Attacks against their friendly troopers." So, the template, now affecting a friendly trooper (myself) would now be cancelled and my opponent shoots me unopposed. - - - - - This would mean that you can -never- walk into base to base with a trooper that you shot with a light-shotgun in the same order.
Seems like the appropriate conclusion to me. There isn't the same "Important" box that allows you to do that with direct templates in the impact template rules, so...
Like not allowing you to shoot your own dudes? Did you read the Template Weapons and Equipment section properly? :) @Diphoration, that's a very interesting find. The way template rules are written in Infinity creates a major difference between the order of declaring your Skills for the Order. If you Move + Shoot, you can choose the point where you shoot from and how to land the template. If you Shoot + Move, you can't do this, which seems to introduce a huge flaw to the ruleset. One of my acquaintances who also happens to be a board game designer (responsible for "Guards of Atlantis", "Warpgate" and the upcoming "Trick Shot") once told me that templates are lazy design and should be ditched. I think I finally agree with him..
I'm not sure if you were responding to me, but I agree. I agree with his last statement in bold and italics because of what you quoted.
You can very easily take your template weapon and shoot it from your feet to the top of their silhouette to avoid this issue entirely. The issue of moving into CC is a different matter, however.
There's an explicit example showing that it's legal to combine firing a light shotgun and walking into BtB. It's on the Impersonation page. http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Impersonation#Example_of_Impersonation_and_base_to_base_contact In his Active Turn, a Hassassin Fiday in the Impersonation-1 Marker (IMP-1) state declares the first Short Skill of his Order: Moving into base to base contact with an enemy Fusilier. Since he ends his Movement in base to base contact, the Fiday reveals himself automatically: he loses his Impersonation-1 Marker state and the Marker is replaced by his figure. Remember that, as a rule, all events that take place during an Order are simultaneous. This means that by entering base to base contact at the end of his Movement, the Fiday is revealed and acts as a figure during his entire Movement route. The Impersonation-1 Marker (IMP-1) is replaced by the Fiday model the moment he declares his Movement, and this affects possible AROs. [...] The Fiday declares BS Attack. Imagine there is one other enemy with LoF to the Fiday besides the target Fusilier. In that circumstance, the Fiday declares a BS Attack as his second Short Skill, distributing his Light Shotgun's B 2 between his two foes. In this scenario, there are two Face to Face Rolls between the active trooper's BS and the appropriate Attributes of his two enemies. If the Fusilier declares CC Attack, his CC Attribute is pitted against the Fiday's BS.
Sweet! Another episode of "this rule works one way in the text, but... oh hey look over there! An example that does something different!"
In general the rules don't work properly if you assume that a trooper can be affected by their own template weapon.
Just missing that red important box on the impact template side of the template rules. Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
I do that all the time with Light Shotguns since these only has a Template mode, however that wasn't the point I was trying to make. The difference is that one order of declaring your skills for the Order allows you to freely choose where the Template would land, accouting for your own movement, distance, cover etc, the other one does not. All of this while current rules state there's no particular differene between the two. Remind me not to read the forum right before going to sleep, I make dumb mistakes :facepalm:
If someone had made the mistake of trying to explain the different sequences as working “the same”, that’s their fault for imprecise wording. Shoot+Move and Move+Shoot have all sorts of differences caused by the sequence of the decisions made during the order. If you have templates involved, the differences caused by the sequencing is more readily apparent. But for Shoot+Move with a non-template weapon, you still don’t have the same choices in targets that you would in Move+Shoot. To be honest, remainder boxes like REMEMBER Even if declared one after the other, both Skills in a single Order occur simultaneously. For example, if you declare Move plus BS Attack, (the Short Skill troopers use to fire their weapons), you can make the BS Attack at any point during the movement route declared, and not necessarily at the beginning or the end of that route. should actually say something like this: If the first skill of an action is movement, the second skill of the order can be declared to happen at any point along that movement if the second skill isn’t also movement. For example, if you declare Move plus BS Attack, you can make the BS Attack at any point during the movement route declared, and not necessarily at the beginning or the end of that route. Because that’s the game mechanic they’re trying to specify.
@Diphoration doesn't this solve the issue: IMPORTANT! Even in contact with the Template, troopers declaring an Attack with a Direct Template weapon are not affected by it, unless the description of such weapon states the contrary.
This is for Direct Template (like a Chain Rifle or a Flamethrower), my example is of Impact Template (like a Missile Launcher or a Boarding Shotgun).
I've got that written down in a file called "Annoying Rules Interactions" since last time it cropped up. Think I've had it reminded to me three times by IJW over the course of N3...