not having MSV2 in TJC is just one of those little pre-nerfs we got. Is absurd from a lore pointview, and it would not be brocken by default (That would depend on who had it). Also, the "everyone has everything" is almost only true for the vainilla armies (and still there, is not completerlly true). TJC is also the only sectorial in the game without MSV2 and cheap smoke (because 24 points is not cheap), all other have at least one or both tools
As long as Hollowmen aren't nerfed hard Tunguska ain't receiving any improvements, so bear up with it. The reason of Tunguska flaws is the existence of Hollowmen, a brain fart of Gutier which basically gives nomads a hiper optimized HI that makes no sense for the faction from a game design point of view. Hollowmen should have been 1W REMs with NWI or at least being limited to AVA 3 in Tunguska and 10 points more expensive than current cost.
I didn't mean to break the lid off the salt container lol. An MSV2 Dire Foe (or an MSV2 Grenzer even) wouldn't exactly break game balance, and would make sense fluff wise. Hopefully it has something interesting anyway.
Tunguska is a lower tier sectorial, too many hard weaknesses. MSV2 wouldn't change that, but I'd much rather to see other improvements.
I agree that hollow are one of the best unit in the sectorial, but they cannot made up for all the flaws (actually having them is more the only redeeming unit the sectorial has). TJC is not only lacking in MSV2, but also in "leadership" (no CoC, no Lt2, no strategos, and I see that is ok for nomads), and order count (TJC have less orders than any other of the "hi-tech" sectorials, while also having worse "hi-tech"). None of those other flaws (and are not the only ones) would go away for having one MSV2 (which BTW, I don't think we will get in the dire fores). I suppose is going to be something the sectorial has now, but a bit more cheaper, maybe is something between grenzer and securitate, a FO grenzer but in IL, without the MSV and worse arm and bts (so the expensive grenzer is not the only one for the new secondary objective)
We need an inexpensive liaison officer. 27-32 points for someone who just sits around in a quadrant or waits until the end of the game so (s)he doesn't risk getting killed is outrageous. I know it's not going to be a dire foe, who will likely clock in at between 20-30 points, but it's my current major bone of contention for Tunguska.
Grenzers, like Bolts, are overpriced. The Sectorial would have been ace if given Triads, but stupid Tohaa are the only ones given that rule.
TJC is not nearly as bad these forums make it out to be, for most people the army just gets them out of their "more orders is more good" comfort zone. It's a challenge to write lists for TJC as there are some tricky limits that come up for utility units that high cost troops create, especially when writing 2 lists for 5 scenario events. In general, TJC is just fine. TJC does suffer from the Nomad design space and it conflicts with the "Hi Tech and flush with money" lore of TJC, but that doesn't make the sectorial bad. I agree that one MSV-2 on a probable combi or pistol platform is not going to make much of a difference in how TJC plays, so hopefully that isn't what we get with this dire foe. @Janzerker man that's some Hollow Man hate right there. I think they are a well designed unit, with obvious flaws, and perfectly justified by the Tunguska lore. The only "pre-nerf" to come from Hollow Men is that it's unlikely that TJC will ever see a Wildcard.
so half the interactions in the game? I really hope that stupid rule either gets severely reigned in or just deleted. I agree with @jfunked, TJC is actually a fairly well designed sectorial (or at least what I consider well designed), with the main thing being that you need to find not obvious answers and break your normal play/list building habits. The only time I really felt "warband weakness" was when I so hilariously out numbered (3 combat groups) that anyone would have issues unless they were also doing some stupid skew list. But on the whole I've never felt that I never had a solution to a problem. On the whole TJC has many trade offs to balance some of the stronger pieces, but hardly anything that's crippling to the army overall. Want MSV2? CJC or vanilla, want cheap smoke spam BJC or vanilla, want all of them and command abilities? go play YJ.
well, I don't mind what the forums say about TJC, I just talk about what I've seen in the table, and this sectorial has enough missing options and struggles with too many things for it to beign called "well dessigned". Every game I have the feeling that I am behind in order count, specialists and power against half the factions out there, and not so ahead against the other half. Also, the results in tournaments are not so good to receive the hate and/or indulgency that the sectorial receives. But all of this is out of the dire fores debate
@Armihaul My experience with TJC is pretty different. I had a lot of trouble at first finding my playstyle with them, but I have played them exclusively since July. Typically at the larger events (40+) I attended over the latter part of this year I was finishing top third or top half, which is not as good as I'd like to but I was still discovering how I need to play them. Recently I've kinda found my groove with them and even won the last 8 person ITS event I played in. One of our Florida players won a 20+ person event with them running 2 Single combat group lists even though the event wasn't a limited insertion event. I know some other guys who are running them and generally finishing respectably well, like top 10 at large events or top third at least. I'm pretty sure TJC won the Adepticon event this year too. I think a lot of players, particularity in this sub-forum, compare them to vanilla Nomads which can take some of the same units in a much more flexible format and then compare how restricted TJC is to that. I won't argue that TJC is better than vanilla nomads. Vanilla is pretty strong and it's flexibility is going to be less restrictive at 5 scenario events, in the right hands it's a real powerhouse. That said, I think TJC stands up to any sectorial. In my experience it has a few bad matchups with warband heavy armies, and god I hate posthumans or dazers (that may be more of a personal thing). It is expensive to fill the midfield with TJC due to all of our power units and Spektrs being 30+ points so some scenarios are a bit more of a challenge and take a careful/patient player and some good luck to win them. Also like a lot of factions, looting and sabotage is hard to win, but hecklers can make it a standoff, so there is that. Anyways, yeah this is derailing the Dire Foes discussion but after all of the posts talking about how difficult TJC is and that it's "a low tier faction" in this thread I thought i would share that's not necessarily a truth, or even a common perception that I have witnessed. Just mostly people here on these forums trash them and these forums don't get a lot of traffic from many of the competitive players because of how bad the group-think can be here. I should qualify what I mean by competitive scene/players; I don't mean payers that are better than everyone else, I just mean players that I frequently see at large events with 40+ players, like Rumble and some of the others. TJC is a challenge to write lists for, but the stat lines of the units you can field can make up for the fewer orders they bring to the table.
yes, pretty different. I've been playing them since their release, with a blank time for starco/corregidor after last interplanetario. I am not so great of a player, but all I can see is that most of TJC players I've seen in person agree on the same issues, and have the same problems. Maybe is a meta thing. I agree that TJC can face against any faction, but that's a bit of a phalacy in this game, because any faction can do it. The problem is the hardships it needs to acomplish that. If a faction needs a bit of luck (as you say), then maybe its not so powerful. I will not say that TJC is low tier sectoria, but is one of the worst from the new ones (which overal are better than most of old ones), so i think TJC lies more in the mid tier one, far from the "don't buff them because they will get OP" that some others say here
Not to hijack this thread any further, but TJC seems to suffer more than any other new sectorial simply because Vanilla Nomads exist. Aside from the Hollow link, a lot of our pieces are simply more effective in Vanilla. Rather than balance the Sectorial, it seems like the objective was to make TJC units compliment Vanilla. It is like they were afraid to give TJC cheap filler units which is so weird as Nomads already has plently of them. RTF and NCA both have AVA 3 flashbots, and it seems weird that TJC doesn’t have that luxury. To make this point related to the topic, I hope our Spec-op is made to useful in TJC and not as focused as being a option in Vanilla.
I actually think that the mixed Grenzer/Securitate team is pretty good. Like, the Grenzers are absolutely expensive and fragile, but in this day and age of powerful link teams with hard hitting MSV AROs, the Grenzer Spitfire is pretty well positioned to take out a lot of those reaction pieces. You can start further up the board and if you can get within the +0 range of a nasty MSR or ML ARO your B 5 Spitfire will chew pretty much anything to bits, and that's pretty damn useful in today's Meta. TJC has in that a tool which is more effective at removing that Dakini, Brawler or Kamau Sniper than vanilla does I think. And with the ability to put Perseus in the link, you also have a very effective gunfighter, CC monster etc.
The Securitate core also gives a resistance to LoL for TJC's aggressive, obvious Lts. I am in absolute agreement with you on the Grenzer. Grenzers are on par for most MI I think, ARM 3 BTS in cover isn't terrible, but MI need an overhaul across the board in costing IMO. FD1 while useful, just seems tacked on and hopefully CB just figures out they need to be re-costed. I have had much more success with Perseus as an independent unit, and even if I take him FTO for the core it's usually as an 6th to reinforce after the feuerbach/ML goes down, but he generally spends most of his time out of the core. The more I think about the Dire Foe, the more I feel she may be a low cost FO for the core.
Jelena Kovac and the Netflix Takeshi Kovacs (Riker sleeve) seem to have enough in common despite the gender swap. Much like Marc Spector (Moon Knight) and Raoul, it is very likely that CB has drawn inspiration from this character. The name is a not so subtle hint and the coat, the pistol, even Jelena's odd hair style looks a bit like Joel Kinnaman's in the series. It would be very cool to me if the profile has something to reflect Envoy training, as a friend of mine suggested maybe Sixth Sense. Inferior Impersonation could even be a fantastic option and potentially fits an undercover role, and is somewhat inline with Takeshi's actions in Altered Carbon. That would be an amazing profile for Tunguska, but yeah... I probably have my Head in the Clouds. I'm not sure what combo of skills could emulate Envoy training, but here's hoping for a fourth amazing character in TJC. I already have enough trouble not taking any one of the others, or all 3. >.< I guess I will be wish listing profiles for Kovac for another month at least.
