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What was once old is new again. Shock army recap

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by deltakilo, Dec 10, 2019.

  1. deltakilo

    deltakilo Bear of Butcher bay
    Warcor

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    Herocon was a 40 player event up in Queensland here in Australia and I had the good fortune of placing first so I thought I’d give a brief recap of my games and lists and few thoughts on the benefits I see of getting outside your comfort zone.

    The mission list was Countermeasures, Capture and protect, Looting and sabotaging, Frontline and Supplies. On top of a challenging line-up with competing goals, the event had terrain rules in effect on roughly one quarter of tables. I have to say, I took more time for this event than any other I have been to writing lists with these challenges in mind.


    Here’s my two lists, the first for Countermeasures, frontline and supplies. The second list was for capture and protect and looting and sabotaging.


    Supplies/Countermeasures/Frontline

    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────


    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10

    BAGH-MARI HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 26)

    BAGH-MARI (Minelayer) MULTI Sniper Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 28)

    REGULAR Hacker (Hacking Device, FastPanda) Combi Rifle + Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 23)

    REGULAR (Minelayer, Sensor) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 14)

    REGULAR Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)

    REGULAR Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)

    REGULAR Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)

    TRAUMA-DOC Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)

    PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)

    NAGA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 28)

    NAGA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)


    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]6 [​IMG]2

    BULLETEER Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 23)

    MACHINIST (SAA) (CH: Mimetism, Multiterrain) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)

    PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)

    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

    AKAL COMMANDO Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, E/M CCW. (0.5 | 28)

    TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)

    WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)


    6 SWC | 300 Points


    Open in Infinity Army





    C&P, L&S

    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────


    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]1

    REGULAR Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)

    REGULAR Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)

    REGULAR (Minelayer, Sensor) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 14)

    REGULAR (Minelayer, Sensor) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 14)

    BAGH-MARI (Minelayer) MULTI Sniper Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 28)

    BAGH-MARI HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 26)

    PEACEMAKER Heavy Shotgun + AUXBOT_3 / Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)

    [​IMG] AUXBOT_3 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)

    TRAUMA-DOC Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)

    PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)

    KNIGHT OF MONTESA Paramedic (MediKit) Boarding Shotgun, Chain-colt / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 39)

    NAGA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)


    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]6

    BAGH-MARI HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 26)

    MACHINIST (SAA) (CH: Mimetism, Multiterrain) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)

    BAGH-MARI (Fireteam: Haris) Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 23)

    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)


    6 SWC | 300 Points


    Open in Infinity Army


    A few potentially interesting decisions for traditional shock armies I see played.

    No dart- This was tough! I’d have loved to have her, the reality is though with looting and sabotaging and capture and protect in the pool the space she would occupy was taken by the Montessa, purely for necessity.

    Akalis hacker- When you look at the pool and the list it was in it was a great choice that I think should be given another look, the fact it’s an assault hacker does make me nervous. However every game I dropped it once I was satisfied that it was safe enough to get its job done, it does however give a level of vulnerability the shotgun and spitfire ones i like don’t.

    Montessa Paramedic- Flat-out, I don’t think this is a good unit, it’s disappointing losing the awesome old montessa. However not being good is not the same as bad and with looting and sabotaging in the pool as a pano player it was necessary, capture and protect it wasn't necessary but i had to pair my lists and it is useful the mobility.



    So onto the games.


    NB- My memory is hazy after 10 hour drive each way, 40 degree Australian heat and a hangover but I’ll do my best to be accurate.


    Round one

    Opponent Vanilla Yujing

    Countermeasures

    My opponent elected deployment on a fairly standard board and I went first the classifieds available from the start were HVT:designation, Net undermine, and Experimental drug.


    My setup my right side my core link with extra bodies was setup, the sniper in a position to see a very strong lane directly forward and also a very long diagonal left to right into my opponents deployment zone. the bulleteer started fairly far back in my deployment zone in the middle just to find some cover for it. right side had both my doctor and engineer fairly close, supported by flash bots and the warcor/tech bee. on my right flank midfield a naga KHD was deployed. My reserve model was my Naga forward observer, out of camo prone but in a position where standing up would allow it to forward observe multiple Hvt models and made it my data tracker.

    Opponents setup on my left my opponent had a monstrucker and rui shi with a couple of monks and pushed forward there were two camo markers , mid was a prone haidao, a camo marker (Camo lt) a mowang and a monk, right there were a few kuang shi and smack bang in the middle of the board there was a camo marker (guilang FO) hiding prone.

    My opponent put all three hvts right next to each other on my left hand side, a risky play that none the less allowed him to defend them all more effectively.


    First turn I discover/shot his camo markers near his Hvt, I can’t remember the specifics but the mine was removed and the Libertos ended up prone so must have dodged out of the way. my Naga stood up and took its shot getting my hvt designation second order. I then dropped my akal on my right side netting myself net undermine. I used my Akal to take out a few kuang shi, then pushed him to take on the midfield camo marker. The goal being to take a wound so I could doctor (I have no issue doing it, but I my opponent who was a great guy, I know doesn't like it so I decided not to jump bodies to heal them) unfortunately there were just no aros up that I could engage to get my stuff killed. Guilang didn’t reveal and my akal, running out of orders decided to hide in a spot to dissuade the Mowang. My large order group, having not a lot left to do, my bagh sniper leaned out taking four awkward aros (including from the guilang) I split burst three ways killing all three things I shot at his best shot I believe was on a 5, whereas my worst shot was a 12 and my best was 18. Guilang died and I believe it was a kuang shi and something else not particularly threatening that went down. rest of my turn was positioning.


    Classifieds, Experimental drug, Identity check, Capture.

    Opponents first turn a few kuang shi and monks met their demise running out into the LOF of my sniper. Smoke got laid to a position for his Haidao on my left hand side. With limited orders Haidao took on my Linked bagh, his haidao was out of cover and the bagh put one wound on the Haidao, the doctor in smoke healed the haidao out of NWI netting my opponent Experimental drug. The Haidao now in cover took on the Bagh a few more times but it was essentially a stalemate. My opponent pushed his Rui shi to deal with the bagh but misjudged the range by about two inches and it went unconscious. Not much else happened this turn of note.


    Turn 2

    Classifieds: Rescue, Identity check, Capture.


    Looking at the classifieds and my positioning was rough. I could have pushed my link to get 2-3 of those. But doing so would have left me wide open with my opponent have two turns left. I spent the turn stripping a few orders, the Haidao and the corpse of the Rui shi were put down too ( didn’t want test run to be an easy pick if the draw came) essentially I spent the turn playing denial, killing things I could see, things that would slow me down in my last turn. Bulleteer was in a position in suppression where the Mowang wouldn’t want to engage.

    Classifieds Rescue, Telemetry, capture

    My opponent played pretty well this turn with limited options left. A tiger hacker dropped in Spotlighting my engineer getting him telemetry, Thankfully this took a few additional orders due to bad rolls or good resets on my part so he didn’t have the chance of getting Capture. He positioned what he had left to slow my advance on the Hvts.


    Turn 3

    Classifieds Rescue, Capture, Follow up.


    So it’s my last turn, its two classifieds each however I have one with a data tracker . My link marches up the field Core linked bagh HMG this late in the game is just too dominant. I end the turn with both follow up capture with about 6 orders left in my other pool, My opponent out of command tokens and one model away from retreat calls it instead of me spending those orders we break for lunch.

    Final Score 10-2


    Round 2

    Opponent Vanilla Nomads

    Capture and protect

    Opponent won the roll and elected to counter deploy me on the side where my route to this beacon was super open.

    Terrain effect: Entire Table Zero G (difficult terrain)


    Travelling 9 and a half hours I play one of my regulars!


    I deployed my fire team with everyone prone but the sniper on my left hand side but close enough to centre that I could mine lay all three of my units in positions where anyone coming at my console would have to deal with the three mines first. They were also positioned in a way that a single move wouldn’t remove more than one at a time so it was either move-move ( meaning three mine saves) or move dodging but having to get lucky more than once. One fleshpot was on my left at an angle that it could see the beacon but couldn’t see very far forward, the right side had two doing the same. My haris and were on my right with my naga forward on that side as well as my montessa which was my data tracker. My peacemaker counter deployed on my right side to deal with his Moran and camo.


    My opponent counter deployed my haris and bike with morans and some camo which from memory was a bandit and a khd zero. on my right there was also camo which was a heckler red fury. There were flash bots/warcor interspersed around. On my left there was a Tr bot, a doctor, a camo marker outside deployment, a camo inside deployment a prone puppet master and in the middle was his very obvious very prone Lt an interventor.


    Turn one

    Peacemakers bot suicided forward to clear the morans I was also able to use the flamethrower to hit the Moran itself and in the process it would hit two camo markers. All three dodged, Moran surviving but the zero and a bandit going down. My Aux bot got crazy lucky staying alive, I pushed the peacemaker itself up to deal with the Moran to FTF so it couldn’t dodge just the flame. Moran survived the assault and peacemaker got immobilised through the morans repeater. I used my naga to take on his LT through his morans repeater which put his LT to unconscious. My naga now could take on the Moran without having to worry about being hacked which it did. My link didn’t do a lot, pushed up a little, killed a flash bot and laid a few more mines. The haris took out a baggage bot and moved forward to engineer (my classified) the peacemaker huddling on the right hand side. Important to note I missed a camo marker that was fairly close on that side


    My opponent in Loss converted some orders regular throughout this turn, he dropped in his tomcat engineer

    in and engineered up his baggage bot which was his classified. He doctored his interventor and the camo marker on my right side that I missed was a zero boarding shotgun, it came round and got a boarding shotgun shot where it would with burst two hit my the entire haris and the peacemaker too. everything dodged with my peacemaker and haris leader going down, the hmg and engineer still alive. In response he got clipped by a flash pulse thankfully.


    Turn 2.

    Montessa impetuous moved towards the zero and blew it away. Engineer got the peacemaker back up and the peacemaker went on a tear down my right-hand side. I killed the baggage bot and tomcat and then took out the interventor again this time however it died, my peacemaker finally went down in a position it wasn’t getting back up due to a TR bot. Link pushed forward for a last turn push dropping all their mines along the way. I killed a few other things this turn , One of which was his new LT. I also hid my montessa to protect my data tracker before my turn ended.


    My opponents turn starts and he declares he is in Loss again, which is pretty brutal, on my right his heckler stands up and takes out my bagh Hmg from the haris. His intruder stands up and takes out my Core linked bagh sniper.


    Turn 3.


    Bagh hmg reforms with another member and takes on the intruder putting it down and the TR bot. Naga on my right kills his heckler. Montessa runs up grabs the box and runs it all the way into my deployment zone with an order to spare. My opponent starts his turn with a single puppet master left.


    I felt really bad for my opponent, essentially he had three turns in loss and or retreat. From a list design point of view it sucked having the montessa which already feels like dead weight not being able to take advantage of his movement. But considering my luck in the game I can’t be too disappointed.



    Round 3

    Opponent ISS

    Looting and Sabotaging

    I lost the Wip roll and my opponent chose deployment, Considering the deployment of the board I think that made sense. It was a board with buildings and massive rocky outcrops interspersed throughout. The rocky outcrops were difficult terrain if you were on them.


    Deployment

    Bagh sniper deployed in an elevated position far back in my deployment zone in the middle prone on one of the rocky outcrops (it started unlinked)

    fleshpots left and right with eyes on console, the link within zoo of the sniper with all the mines deployed to prevent easy run into my console. right side haris, montessa peacemaker. Naga left side.


    Opponent deployed his kuang shi core in the middle of his deployment zone, his hsien madtrap haris on my left a rui shi on my right side sophotec closely behind, Tr bot in the middle too with eyes on the ac2. There was also a few celestials floating around (hacker, shotgun)


    Turn 1

    Naga KHD grabbed d charges out of the left panoply and took on the celestial guard smoke launcher which happened to be link leader from an awkward angle. Celestial guard went unconscious (I should have killed it but forgot to) with the link broken my haris on the right side got to work and took out 3 or four of the kuang shi. It was a hard line to see but when I did I had to take it as I wouldn't get that chance twice. Every member of my haris took something from panoplies only thing worth mentioning was the fact my engineer took a second set of d charges in case. I also got his hacker, a few other light pieces. Not a single order spent on my link I reformed with the sniper in the link.


    My opponent hadn’t lost a lot of useful things but was relatively order starved which was a relief as I knew what was happening with his Hsien. His sophotect brought the smoke launcher back up and then the smoke launcher started trying to get smoke down for his Hsien, Very fortunately for me it took 3 or 4 orders which meant his Hsien didn’t have a lot of orders to muck around with. As a result he didn’t end up having the orders to do the Madtrap bait trick and his hsien ended up out of cover having to engage my bagh sniper. two on 18s v 5 on 8s. Hsien got blown away, which was His LT. It was a brutal blow and if smoke went down early the hail mary play wouldn’t have been needed.


    Turn 2.

    Peacemaker on my left took on his Rui shi but a Ninja engaged me, Knowing it was his best source of getting the mission done I let the rui shi shoot me and opposed the engage. The Ninja won the roll and locked up my peacemaker. Fortunately used unopposed electric pulse due to Gsync to immobilise the ninja. Montessa ran up my right side and got a shot on the sophotect 2 dice 19s with the hit spraying into his TR bot. At this stage he had a few points on the board but very little way to threaten. I consolidated, paying attention to retreat.


    My opponent moved all his pieces to see his ac2 and shot into combat to remove the peacemaker from the imm ninja, but the ninja got hit and died (more bad luck for my opponent)


    Turn 3. I used my bagh haris as it was in the group that didn’t have the montessa to remove all his pieces standing up to opposed the montessas run at the AC2. once the aros were dealt with Montessa went in with almost a full order group, after about 5 orders the AC2 was gone and that was game.


    It’s hard to take credit for this win, My opponents dice were so rough and he did a good job to not tilt. I’d have not been able to handle it that well.


    Round 4

    Opponent: Shock mirror match!

    Frontline

    (This game was a very tough game and I was hangover so details aren’t super clear, bear with me)

    This is the first Wip roll I won and elected to choose deployment, it’s a risk against a good player but I wanted the last say at the end of the game.


    My opponent deployed his orc Feuerbach/regular link roughly in the middle of his deployment zone, he had a camo marker right on the midline, middle of the field. His liaison officer which was a camo naga on my left side behind a building. His Bagh haris was on my left. the rest of his list were just some orders and a prone doctor.


    My deployment was a bit of a gambit but I think it was the right call. I counter deployed my Bagh sniper in a position where I would get an out of cover shot against his Feuerbach. I also lined up all three flash pulse bots and my warcor in positions that to move he would be suffering a total of 5 aros all of which would be out of cover unless he stayed prone. ( four flash and the sniper) link team was on my right, sniper in elevated position bulleteer was on my left side with a couple of the flash bots and the engineer. naga khd was in the middle of the board as was my liaison officer naga.


    A note here, I stripped orders from his Haris group as opposed to his core. My rationale was that it was very likely that his link team wouldn’t be able to get much done with the orders he had. and I’d rather limit the haris at that point.


    Turn 1


    Unfortunately the theory didn’t pay off, my opponent moved his Feuerbach to engage my sniper. From memory it was his 3 dice on 11s v 2 on 18s but I rolled 3&4 and melted. That on its own was fine, after my run of luck it was about time for some bad luck. But what hurt is that the four unopposed flash pulses in good range failed to result in a single success against a bts 3 orc. So now I have given my opponent targets and a full order group to remove them, and that’s what he did. Details are fuzzy but I lost all three fleshpot orders my warcor, bagh sniper and he had pushed all his stuff into good positions forward.


    It wasn’t an ideal start but totally fine, unfortunately I was a little flustered and made some poor decisions in this turn. First thing I did was use my machinist to kill his naga fo, I put it unconscious with the last order from the engineer. Which meant I had to push something forward to kill it dead, I didn’t want my opponent having his doctor bring it back. Some poor awareness led to me getting redrummed unopposed which thankfully only put me dogged, I removed his naga from the table and killed a couple of cheap orders before I turtled up and invited my opponent to come into me.


    Turn 2.


    Thankfully removing my opponents Liaison officer reset my brain and I was back on track and focussed on the mission. I essentially left nothing out which meant any attack was costly in orders and risk, and having the last turn meant I felt I had the advantage. My opponent dropped in an Akal and shot up my engineer that wasn’t expecting it. It then went into cc with my bulleteer, the reasoning behind this was he could Aro manipulate to get into cc and my opponent felt that was better than ftfing me in cover with ODD. Very fortunately for me the Akal got immobilised from the electric pulse. A regular pushed forward to drop a mine, slowing a line for my fire team it also sensored what was a mine of mine. He pushed his regular with his last order close to my naga liaison officer, but after realising he wouldn’t have the movement to attack it went prone in a threatening place. No aros standing up as he knew the bagh would be grateful for the target practice.


    I knew I had to push this turn to have a chance of winning. My fire team moved up and from elevation was able to get shots on regulars that were out of cover, I unfortunately couldn’t get to his orc but I got two of the regulars down. I bunkered down on a building that meant I had options to move in my last turn and would be very challenging to get to.


    Turn 3.

    Opponent pushed where he could to get into zones, Running his naga into my forward zone as a marker meant I had to outpoint it or waste orders I didn’t have getting rid of it. A baggage bot hid in the mid zone too, not much died but if I didn’t have last say id have lost.


    It was a really hard map to gauge zones for some reason, I assume the diagonal terrain threw me off a bit. My Akal dropped in, shot the baggage bot in back and moved into the mid zone. I had a look what was on the board and I could guarantee a minor win at this stage or hope I guessed zones right for the major. I decided to guarantee the win. So ignored the furthest zone and just consolidated in my zone and the mid one with a liaison officer. For a very close 5-1 win. it could have been a major but the liaison officer rolled a 20.


    A really hard fought game against a very tough opponent, playing a very similar list to my other list.



    Round 5

    Vanilla Aleph

    Supplies


    Top table against the other player currently on four wins on a corridor table.

    I won the WIP roll and against LTD insertion Aleph with Achilles, if the mission didn't force my hand, his list did I chose to go first.


    My link was in the middle with the only long ranged spot I could find. right side had a few fleshpots and both my doctor and engineer. the middle and right supplies were covered with my prone nagas. The left one was the only one I was worried about getting. But I had my tech bee on that side and could drop in the akal in a pinch. My reserve was my bulleteer which was deployed on my left to deal with his TR bot.


    Opponent deployed on my weak left side Tr bot looking at the box id struggle to get, Achilles and a post human doctor were also on the left, the middle of his side had a mk 12 agema, a myrmidon, and a danavas. There was a post human mk5 looking at the right box too. My opponent also declared an infiltration roll. So I knew he had something in TO on my side of the board.


    Turn 1.


    This game was fast and brutal, Everything went my way and went my way early in this one. My non linked sensor activated and sensored, I was worried that if I activated my link a boarding shotgun would rip through me. A dasyu KHD was revealed (good thing I didn’t put support ware up yet), Now with the dasyu revealed mines from the link and the baghs pistol made short work of it. I then put support ware on my bulleteer and took down the TR BOT. Next order I moved around to take on Achilles 4 dice on 9s my opponent failed his dodge! and I rolled a crit and 3 hits which Achilles failed a second save. I honestly just wanted to end the turn with a wound on Achilles to make him more cautious. But to have Achilles with one wound left in a bad spot with plenty of orders I burnt group twos orders putting him down. After successfully dodging towards me twice and getting pretty close, I double crit on 9s and took him off the board.


    Nagas prone took the boxes and ran back, the one in the middle got safe the one on the right put a wound on the post human mk5 and revealed the sniper which flubbed its roll on me. The bagh then put a wound on the Sniper and my turn ended with everything going better than id have expected.


    My opponent was in LOL and he did his best. His agema took out my bagh HMG, his proxy killed my naga holding my right box. that was pretty much it.


    First order my bagh sniper took out his post human sniper, and then his agema and his mk5 proxy. With what he had left and me with almost everything still alive we called the game. I could have in four orders tops picked up both boxes and secured the HVT.


    I feel like this is a different game if Achilles got his run down my weaker left flank. Really poor dice from my opponent gave me a lucky win leaving me on 4 majors and a minor win for the weekend.



    If you have any questions let me know! It’s pretty rough but hopefully it was somewhat worth the read.


    My thoughts overall Is that I got pretty lucky in a few cases where good luck was at play more than good management. The event was really hard to plan for, between terrain rules and a challenging and diverse mission set was making me pull my hair out, But a point that gets lost is that everyone is suffering together. Now some factions may do some missions better than others but its rare a faction could handle all 5 of these missions in a two list format perfectly.

    Taking ok units is ok, an ok unit that can do a job is better than a great unit that cant do the job you want. My standard list had to lose dart to fit the montessa, Which hurts but I needed the Anti materiel so in she went.

    Lastly, a lot of the new armies are very strong, in very obvious ways. Varuna has been held up to that standard. But shock army, you lose a small amount of direct firepower, particularly defensive firepower but you add so much versatility. The old armies definitely feel more well rounded than the new ones which feel much more one dimensional.
     
    yoink101, Zsimbi, KwarkyMats and 9 others like this.
  2. KestrelM1

    KestrelM1 Well-Known Member

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    Great battle report, thanks for putting it together!

    I have a query for you: do you still feel the same way about the Montesa biker after playing it over 2 games? The common opinion I hear is that people don't like the unit, as you yourself stated in the intro. However in almost every battle report I've read featuring one, they've been extremely effective and pivotal to victory. In your recap you lament that the Montesa was limited but it handily secured your victories in both Capture and Protect and Looting and Sabotaging while leaving you plenty of orders to focus on lowering your opponent's model count. Is it something you'd play again even if not ideal for the mission?
     
  3. Tongfa

    Tongfa ULTRA INSTINCT UKR

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    Thanks for the report.

    I notice that this list like your OSS is in the 16-17 order range. Do you feel that in a non-tactical window format, those number of orders are the 'optimal' way to play infinity - especially in ASA where you've got some very efficient pieces?

    Also, did taking a TAG ever come into consideration? If you had taken a TAG, how would it have changed the way you took the event?
     
  4. deltakilo

    deltakilo Bear of Butcher bay
    Warcor

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    I love the Tikbalang and have a 15 order Tik list that I love playing. The problem was this pool didnt support that list in a way i was super comfortable with. In the unlikely event I take Shock to Cancon I will likely take the TIK because the mission lineup definately supports it.

    As for optimal its all flavour, I struggled against a limited insertion Jotum list not long ago and only barely scraped a draw against it. For me personally the template to success is 15+ orders with min two strike pieces in group one, and one in group two. 2 units focussed on objectives group one and one in group two. The rest depends but is usually either muck to slow and distract an opponent or is used for hail mary plays or attacks of opportunity. Shock army to me sits perfectly comfortable at 16, However I have run Limited insertion too. The highest i have gotten to is 17 orders with shock.
     
  5. deltakilo

    deltakilo Bear of Butcher bay
    Warcor

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    CB I feel is insulated to poor unit designs because the core of the game keeps everything fair. Amazing units still die, and weaker choices can still use positioning to be effective.

    As for the montessa, I wouldnt take it unless i was trying to make a point. What it gives me, for the cost is something I just dont need in normal games. As for it being useful in both my games, the thing i found Is because I was really uncomfortable with the unit I didn't spend orders on it early which meant it was fairly safe vs threats to it. and by the time it took an opening, the threats to it had been removed. I think thats how you use it incidentally, it doesnt run up the field like a kum chain rifling a link and dying. Id keep it to a flank and just be patient and protected waiting for an opening. Its not a bad unit, its a question of how much you need what it offers.
     
  6. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    I chuckled at fleshpots doing the flashing!

    Thanks for the write up! It's never easy doing the games Justice but it's always appreciated.

    I did have one question, you mentioned getting an unopposed electric pulse on a ninja which had engaged you via g: sync? How did that work?
     
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  7. deltakilo

    deltakilo Bear of Butcher bay
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    When you are in cc and you have a gsync unit in your active turn your declare your first skill, then your opponent declares his aro then you can use one of your members of the gsync team to cc. So it works like this.
    First short skill.
    Opponent declares aro (in this case against the peacemaker itself)
    I declare that the auxbot will be the one attacking using electric pulse. I lose my peacemaker as it gets hit unopposed by the ninja but he also fails to win a ftf against the auxbot so suffers the effects of electric pulse.
     
    #7 deltakilo, Dec 10, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
  8. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    I'm simple man, I see ASA list I like.
     
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  9. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    @deltakilo
    Nice one, bud. We agree that Shock Army is one of the best-kept secrets of Infinity, something I plan to leverage quite a bit this season. But it's particularly interesting that you got to apply them to a mission lineup that's challenging (or perhaps, more accurately, requires a very specific set of rules, unit types, etc. to succeed.) Looks like you were able to make that work very nicely. I wish I'd brought Shock Army to my most recent ITS myself... As you accurately assess, they lose out to VIRD on a few tools that I ultimately think are minor, and gain all that amazing versatility. I'm spending December repainting my whole collection.

    Anything you would have changed with your lists? Any big moments that you would have done differently? Game 4 can be a rough one for me in 5 game events, so I paid particular attention to your writeup there.

    I think the Montessa's certainly necessary for some missions, though I haven't used it yet simply because I felt it was the best combat unit for the job. Is that a viewpoint you agree with? What would you change on that guy to improve his role?

    Nice to see the Akalis Assault Hacker. I've run it a few times in the past, and it's always done much better for me than I ever thought it would (though I'm not certain I've ever hacked anything with it.) Can't argue with a BS16 Combi in the backline though. Did you ever make attempts to drop it in on PH11, or did you walk it on each time?
     
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  10. deltakilo

    deltakilo Bear of Butcher bay
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    Honestly no, I never felt I was lacking anything. The only thing I may have considered was the GDA instead of the Montessa, However that was mainly because I got hurt by zero g and because the way my games went id have had the orders to cc the thing to death even with a GDA list. But thats hindsight and even then I dont think it would have been the right call. Thankfully I had a very pano experience where I was able to shoot all my problems away so smoke wasnt needed.

    Honestly I feel it is 5 points too expensive for what it does, I am not complaining or demanding they "fix it" But the reality for me is at its points cost I can get a hacker and bulleteer or dart and tech bee or an orc feurbach (ignoring swc) My point being that its cost for a b2 specialist that never gets cover is not a consistent performer. But its not a bad unit either. I went in with zero expectation and as a result i ended up mildly happy as opposed to disappointed. If it were 39 pts for multirifle specialist I would consider it much more useable. Eclipse smoke would instantly make it use-able for every army so if CB wanted it taken thats the route you go. But honestly im of the opinion its such a narrow unit in terms of use-ability but it is use-able.

    Still havent hacked anything yet, But i have pushed repeaters into positions to take advantage of dropping him in and messing with people. Unfortunately every time I have dropped him in its been late as cleanup and hes done that well. Surprisingly well, I think thats half the problem with Infinity conversations, the tiger soldier is miles better so Pano players get down on the Akal, but we dont have a tiger. Good enough is good enough especially when we get benefits elsewhere which means the Akal usually comes in with less pressure on him.
     
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  11. Janzerker

    Janzerker Well-Known Member

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    Eclipse smoke makes any unit automatically playable. That's because Eclipse is one of the cancers of this game. Eclipse smoke goes against the conception N3 was based on: eliminating all the rule concepts that don't allow interaction between players. It was ok during N2 but something that should have disappeared in N3. The problem raises from giving Eclipse to CC units. Initially these units were in armies that lacked long range firepower; but as the game has been growing those armies received more long range weapons thus breaking the balance. So no, giving Eclipse to any CC unit is not an option.
     
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  12. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    When L&S rears its ugly head, I also think about GdA vs Montessa. I want to like the GdA a lot... It's a classic PanO unit. For those not in the know, the GdA was a very rare "fast" HI, and was 4-4 at a time when HI were 4-2 as standard. G:Synchronized was also a very rare unit, and the GdA was the only 2-Wound G:synch unit as well.

    Since then, the GdA has lost a lot of its unique appeal.

    @deltakilo I've run it a few times, particularly in missions where I felt that Eclipse might be critically helpful (objective room missions, Acquisition, PowerPack, pretty much anything where you might need to reach a point on the table and simply park a unit there.) But it continually disappoints me in combat, I find. I particularly dislike paying 49 points for rifle rangebands, something that PanO already does incredibly well, and without the need to gain Hacking Vulnerability. 2 SWC for that Spitfire is criminal.

    But at least it offers an interesting alternative to the Montessa. Your examples highlight my attitude towards both the Montessa and the GdA... They can be made useful, but you can buy so many other great units with equivalent points , it makes hard to want to reach for either of them unless you need them for a specific Scenario.

    I've thought about Scylla for some of those weirder missions too. She doesn't start with d-charges, but she's a Specialist and can Cybermask, so there's some appeal there too. She lacks the raw speed of the Montessa, but is better at defending vs hackers, has respectable CC value for L&S, etc. I might try her in a practice game.

    Regarding the Akali:
    I think PanO particularly benefits from the disruption and surprise that an AD unit can provide. Since you're probably not Chain Rifling cheerleaders, or smoking an objective for easy scoring, it's really nice to have a disruption unit that can show up and cause problems. I'm not sure I've run the Akali Hacker since Dart came out though... Not that they fulfill similar roles, but rather than I find myself buying 2 Nagas, Dart, Peacemaker, and finding I've allocated all the points I want to spend on midfield units. The rest of those points go to my Core link, fugazi, doc, etc. and that's it. I'll have to take another look at the Akali Hacker for missions that need i.t

    A general list note:
    I like seeing the Machinist in there. I'm finding Isolation to be a pretty common tool here (certain Combined Army player(s) particularly love it... I fight the E-Drone in every California ITS i attend) and Acon integrates it more easily than either VIRD or NCA, I find. That's a good point for me to remember too.

    @Janzerker
    It's no fun to have 200 points of ARO staring at a key objective, and lose to an opponent because they have one model with Eclipse Smoke. Trust me, I get it. Non-participation play is my least favorite part of the game, and smoke is the chief offender for enabling it. But if smoke / eclipse smoke will continue as mechanics in next edition, there's nothing wrong with PanO having a better platform for it themselves. PanO gets a sectorial that fully punishes non-participation play (VIRD) and it has the community screaming murder. Finding the balance for smoke, between a crutch for non-participation, and an asset for some Vanilla factions, who can't possibly outshoot PanO, is a difficult balance to find.
     
    #12 barakiel, Dec 10, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
  13. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    As much as the Bagh Sniper is an obvious upgrade for the Regular Sapper - DZs get crowded fast with Shock Army and shitty tables that can fit entire Links aren't always guaranteed.
    It's also is still cheaper and rolls the same dice against stuff without Mimetism and White Noise/Albedo is getting pretty common to walk past Kamaus.

    So while initially declaring the Regular MSR for dead, I'm leaning back towards it. Theres also a lot those extra 5 points can buy in SAA, upgrading a Naga to Dart, slapping a Spitfire on something or adding a Techbee.
    Did you miss the extra deployment space of the Sapper or do you think you prefer the Bagh Upgrade @deltakilo ?

    /edit: screw L&S, give us Frostbyte back instead :/
     
  14. deltakilo

    deltakilo Bear of Butcher bay
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    I personally dont have significant issues with eclipse existing, The proliferation of it in tohaa i find a bit much but that has more to do with how they initially were built with it in mind but then they just added units to tohaa so that it felt wrong that they now have so easily available. For me the main rule that needs to change is concerned with ARO baiting and the quality of life change id like to see is reintroduction of missions that arent so purely kill or straightforward.
    But to each his own. I am not saying give the montessa eclipse. I am just saying the model outside niche application isnt worth taking.
     
  15. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    I do miss the old Suppressive Fire rules, where it created a corridor of fire that ignored Smoke / Eclipse, Cautious Movement, etc.

    It was hard to use, but it was brilliant for defending key areas from non-engagement tools.

    @Teslarod
    I think I've seen Deltakilo run a Sapper and a Bagh Sniper for white noise purposes. For my own point, I think 2-3 Minelayers and multiple flash pulses can help offset the Albedo / White Noise mechanic, but I need to play more on the table to know for certain. An AP mine scares the hell out of some Albedo users, and is very little threat against others... And obviously White Noise can be an asset for any hostile unit on the table. I'm pretty confident I could travel to a big US event and probably not be troubled by White Noise, but it would be incredibly dangerous vs some locals, who have prepared great tools to counter the last 12 months of VIRD.

    Deltakilo, thoughts on Teslarod's question, as far as your meta and competitive experiences are concerned?
     
  16. deltakilo

    deltakilo Bear of Butcher bay
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    The msv1 felt huge for its ability to knock heavy mod targets down a peg. with msv1 and link bonuses from ssl2 and +3 bs it was resilient in ways i was very grateful for. The other big benefits i saw was both the FD1 and minelayer with a mine that extends outside your deployment aswell. In saying that I have lists where i sub the bagh for a sapper and love it too. Over the weekend i definately did a survey of tables and wished I had a sapper because there were some excellent positions if i had a sapper.
     
  17. Janzerker

    Janzerker Well-Known Member

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    Not in a bike speed unit with 2W, mimetism, very decent in CC, good at shooting and that on top of that is a specialist. With Eclipse that automatically becomes a seeking missile monster that can open a hole in enemy defenses, wipe the back lines and even have time to score points in objectives. His current role is that of exploiting holes not opening them.
     
  18. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    Naw. That's a short sighted view.

    The Montessa's a much more easily countered unit than than a lot of aggressive threats that are already in the game: Minelaying Impersonators, 2 Wound AD/Impersonators, AVA Total Inferior Infiltrators, Eclipse-wielding Triads, Total Immune Multi-Wound Chain Rifles, Burst 5 Fatality L2 units linked to effective Direct Template wielders... The Montessa's significantly less of a threat than any of these, whether it has Eclipse or not.

    That being said, I'm not sure anyone cares enough about Montessa changes to make it a focus of this thread. Discussion of an interesting 5-game ITS win is much more interesting.
     
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  19. deltakilo

    deltakilo Bear of Butcher bay
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    The Bagh v Sapper sniper is tough. Bagh has more weaknesses with white noise/albedo existing. But the reliability of dealing with models with mods means I feel more secure with the Bagh. SSL2 Means white noise is used more often defensively than aggressively so thats something I guess.
     
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  20. deltakilo

    deltakilo Bear of Butcher bay
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    yeah like i said, I am not demanding/wishlisting that montessa gets eclipse. But i also was providing a suggestion to make it a useful unit. I think its a stretch to consider eclipse turning a maligned unit into broken. Would it be a strong option? absolutely. Would i take it every game? not on your life. The reality is an expensive bike unit, that cant get cover, that has low burst is not an easy unit to use well consistently and for its cost i believe it should be a more consistent performer. But im also not dying on this hill because i think its usable if the missions demand it.
     
    #20 deltakilo, Dec 10, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
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