With the new release of Jazz an interesting question about hacking ARO's has come to my mind. Say my opponent tries to hack Jazz and she uses Maestro but, I also reveal a bandit KHD and us Skullbuster on the opponent. What happens if my opponent fails the BTS save against each program? Do they take the Maestro first and then the wound and die OR do they take the wound first and just go unconscious?
Previous wisdom had been that you put the person Unconscious first, then apply all the wounds. It's ambiguous, however.
Well, the last time I asked about this, it's simultaneous which I believe actually ends up ensuring that the wounds can never be applied AFTER the unconscious, meaning they don't die. Intuitively its a bit strange, but there's no sequence applied at all, we just try to imagine the -1 wound and 'go to unconscious' happening at the same time independently of each other. In normal cases two separate effects both causing -1 wound also happen independently and are only added together later. I'm told this is also the reason why a Fraacta taking two wounds from one F2F roll have them both applied to the first profile.
That is an interesting perspective on the question that I hadn't thought of. It however does raise the question around the wording as Maestro says "lose all points from his wounds/str attribute and go straight to unconscious". So now in application if I beat a swiss guard and the results come up concurrently under your interpretation does the Swiss just end up net -3 wounds and die. What I mean is when does the summation of total wounds occur?
I was about to agree with VaulSC because I also remember the forums coming down the other way (just unconscious), but the wording you quoted would lead me to a different answer. You don't just fall unconscious, you lose all points in the wounds attribute and fall unconscious. What's the result of losing all wounds + 1 more wound? Dead, unless G:RP.
That's an incorrect interpretation of how Symbiont armor (and Transformation profiles in general) work. The change between profiles happens after all steps of the Order, if not specified separately (e.g. Best Cat AKA Su-Jian), that's why if your Fraacta takes two hits, you would save both of them with your first profile's ARM value, even if you fail the first one and take a wound.
Damage and effects from damage are simultaneous across the entire order. If a Kappa Hacker loses a wound to Skullbuster and loses a save against Maestro at the same time, the end result will be that Skullbuster deducts a wound and Maestro puts you in Unconscious simultaneously with no preference to one or the other. As such the Kappa will have lost one wound and thus be suffering from two effects that both puts them into Unconscious. Yes, this makes Maestro much less powerful. I think you're misremembering.
Apparently you don’t remember the conclusion. Each result is applied simultaneously and independently. There is no priority despite your attempts to claim there is.
Yes, and you still need to apply this simultaneously and without favour and there is only one way to do that consistently. It's a very strong hacking program that you don't need to invent new ways of making it stronger. Use it against multi-wound units that you positively need to get Unconscious.
Uh... no. It seems very consistent to, when using it on, say, an Asura hacker with 2 wounds remaining who fails a BTS roll against both Maestro and Brain Blast, to say that Maestro inflicts 2 wounds because that's how many she has remaining, and simultaneously Brain Blast does another one.
Uh... yes. If you do it with your calculus, you have chosen a specific order in which where the effect of Maestro takes precedence in calculating a set number of wounds in damage. There is no indication in Maestro that the effect should count a number of wounds and deal those in a set number of damage, nor that these wounds are in any way enumerated and added to other wounds lost in the order, what is said is that all wounds are removed.
I can see where your misconception about “damage” comes from, but I feel it’s important to mention that infinity doesn’t have a conventional damage system and instead runs on “loss of wounds/str”. In this case Maestro specifically mentions that the victim “loses all points of their wound/str attribute and enters unconscious. Now what I explained earlier was that this is the same wording as any other sword program just without a specific number attached to it. The fact of the matter is that stacking “damage” is traditionally summed and then applied at the end of the order in which it occurred so why would the variable “damage” being caused by Maestro ambiguously put the effect at the end of the summation chain?
I do not think it is prudent to assume someone is under a misconception in this case. I'm not entirely sure I can see where you explained that this is the "same wording as any other sword program" (is this a discussion coming from Facebook, maybe?), nor do I agree that Maestro has a "variable 'damage'" amount. "All wounds/structure" is to me a fixed, non-mathematical, quality unless it is specified as a mathematical quality or given preference or deference. Strictly speaking, in order for this to work with simultaneity, you should arrive at the same result of wound Markers every time regardless of order of operations, as such the only way to handle Maestro is to evaluate if it has been applied or could be applied during the process after the process is finished. I would nearly go so far as to claim that if there is any misconception here, then it is that wounds are lost and the one under this misconception is more or less the rulebook itself and that it is this way of constantly describing it "wrong" that has lead to Maestro being the mess it is. Mechanically what the game describes is that wounds are gained and when they amount to the same number of wounds as your W characteristic, your soldier falls unconscious. But you know, imperfect system #prayforn4 and all that. Maestro does need clarification something badly, though. You shouldn't have to reach for a philosophy book to work a rule out -.-;;
Firstly, I just wanna say i meant no offense by assuming a misconception, it may ironically enough have been a misconception of my own. Secondly, what i meant buy same wording between sword programs was that all of them specifically refer to "loss of one point from the wound/str attribute". I interpreted Maestro's text as being the same except that you replace "one" with "all remaining" and so, to my sensibilities, the wording alludes to the result not being directly entering the unconscious state, rather an amount of wounds being subtracted equal to the number of the attribute. The truth is though that we need a ruling on this because all of the internet Aristeia we engage in (as fun as it is ;P) will never really result in a concrete ruling.
Knowing that this has been discussed before, could you elaborate on this? I'm not finding this as any less order dependent as doing maestro first. Simultaneity to me looks like what I posted above: Maestro = lose all remaining wounds + go unconscious (or do so because all wounds are lost). Brain Blast = lose 1 wound Together = lose all remaining wounds + 1 W lost = 1 W lost + all remaining wounds = dead unless G:RP Going the other way requires: lose 1 W THEN lose all remaining W
Because, and let's use a Betatrooper as target and let's use another successful hack as Redrum. Just one Redrum, because I want to show absurdity. Maestro, 1st Redrum, 2nd Redrum = -2 wounds, -1 wound, -1 wound = dead 1st Redrum, Maestro, 2nd Redrum = -1 wound, -1 wound, -1 wound = 2nd level Unconscious 1st Redrum, 2nd Redrum, Maestro = -1 wound, -1 wound, -0 wounds = 1st level Unconscious None of those results are the same, hence there is something wrong with how you are applying order to something simultaneous. If you instead consider the effect as by necessity meaning that Maestro forces the target into the Unconscious state (unless it is Dead in which case it doesn't exist) into the Unconscious state, then at any point when the Betatroper's wound Markers equal it's STR, Maestro is fulfilled and only if it doesn't during resolution it will remove the remainder.
