McMurder activates and moves into view of my flash pulse bot. The bot is pretty much useless thanks to total immunity, but I declare a flash pulse anyway because, why not? Turns out McMurder's second short skill is to throw smoke so that he can continue his dastardly run towards my TAG/lt/whatever. As it happens, the spot he wants to put the smoke is between him and the flash pulse bot. Is the roll face-to-face? I can't stun McMurder, but can I prevent the smoke from landing if I outroll him?
The Messenger Remote is directly affecting McMurder even if it is ineffectual. This fulfils the game's most basic criteria for Face to Face roll. McMurder's smoke grenade also fulfil the requirement for the non-targeted BS Attack to be a Face to Face roll. As such, yes this is a Face to Face roll. http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Face_to_Face_Rolls For actions to be resolved with a Face to Face Roll, both troops must affect each other directly. http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Smoke_Special_Ammunition Unlike other Special Ammunition, Smoke can be used to avoid enemy Attacks, but only if those Attacks require LoF and a Roll, and their LoF is blocked by the Smoke Circular Template being placed
It's not so much about the general "two troopers affecting each other" and more "the smoke is blocking an Attack so the Special Dodge Trait kicks in".
That makes sense. We were having trouble applying the F2F definition because arguably, the troops don't "affect each other directly" when one is flash pulsing and the other has TI. But the Special Dodge rule doesn't require that they affect each other, just that the smoke would block a required LoF. Thanks!
Doesn't this idea directly conflict with the idea that Flash Pulses don't force the removal of SymbioMates then? Edit: Nvm I just took another look at Total Immunity and realized I was living in a house of cards.
I thought it was pretty clear when I reviewed. Face to Face rolls happen when active and reactive are affecting each other. Total Immunity takes effect after an attack affects the user but before the user takes any saves. If the user wasn't affected they wouldn't be able to use the skill so we know its a face to face roll. Symbiomates are lost on required ARM/BTS Roll. Total Immunity stops the user and bypasses the save step. Total Immunity's timing intercedes the two which is why it seems so funny. And I understand the logical argument that if a user can't do anything to its target is it then affecting it? But rules themselves already answer that from the writer's perspective yes. As to the balance of it the way it is now gives TI bearers some minor measure of consternation when facing Flash Pulse bots and helps make symbiomates not feel terrible. Seems like a reasonable decision.
I really disagree; the decision that merely having a SymbioMate makes the bearer immune to non-lethal attacks without expending the mate is counterintuitive and very questionable balance wise. Nah, SymbioMates are lost when hit by an attack which forces an ARM or BTS roll, which, say, Flash ammo does by default. There's no defined "timing" here; it's entirely arbitrary, and is yet *another* interpretation which seems hell-bent on making Tohaa as powerful as possible - especially since now it makes the bearer more resilient to explosive crits, nonlethal ammo, and Biotechvore zones. I'd make the argument that in some ways the change was an upgrade. To be frank, there's been a series of design decisions which imply someone at CB or in the editing team really, really wants Tohaa to be extremely powerful. SymbioMates honestly should feel terrible, they're not that expensive in terms of points. TI bearers just ignore Flash Pulse bots; before they could be stunned (as the fluff implied with Loup-Garous having Flash/Stun grenades). It also means Karakuris are effectively ARM 6 without paying for it, which is incredibly unbalanced.
I mean its cool you're passionate about this stuff but I'm not really here to argue about what should or shouldn't be from a balance stand point. We've got an answer on mates, we have a clear answer on this thats internally consistent. Thats all I care about, see you on the flip side.
I don't think Flash Pulse vs. Smoke TI should be F2F. Flash Pulse won't be affecting anything at all. And as per the face-to-face page, that implies a normal roll. @Mahtamori, how is Flash Pulse affecting McMurrough?
It's an attack on him. It has no effect, but that's not the same as not affecting them. Besides, on a technicality that doesn't matter in this case, because Special Dodge states it becomes a Face to Face as long as it intercepts a BS Attack that requires LOF. So even if you don't believe that effect and affect are two different things, then you can also answer with "because Special Dodge says so"
Well, I'm countering your idea that it was "clear" upon the TI revision. It was definitely a point of contention.
Total Immunity doesn't say it cancels the attack, it just replaces the effects of the attack. You are still affected by the weapon, you just don't suffer any of its effects.
@Mahtamori @n21lv "Affect" means "have an effect on". So not quite sure what distinction you're trying to make there. "because Special Dodge says so" is a better argument, but it still doesn't feel right that a flash pulse that's going to do literally nothing is going to stop smoke grenades.
The action affects McMurrough, but the ammo does not, McMurrough is immune to the effects of the ammo not those of the skill declared. Also keeping in mind that it never specifies what the effect has to be and that just because you as a player does not care about it does not mean it is not affecting the target. Being targeted by a hostile action is affecting the target.
They are attacked? I mean, if I should expletives at you, you are affected. Your brains don't need to be splattered over the walls nor do you need to swoon in some sort of love craze, being idly bemused is an actual effect. In this case, someone's directing a very annoying noise/light/thingy at McMurrough that he can toughen up to ignore automatically where it is difficult for most people to do that, and he's doing that by making use of an optional skill which he chooses whether to use after the Face to Face has been resolved.
Friendly reminder that touching an enemy trooper with a Smoke template counts as an attack affecting him. For example, if this enemy trooper is facing away from your smoker, that would give the enemy trroper an option for Dodge ARO due to template out of LoF. (and if the enemy trooper has Sixth Sense - he can shoot back at you).
