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Revisiting NCA for 2020

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Teslarod, Nov 21, 2019.

  1. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Well then, after a stint with Vanilla it's time to rethink NCA a bit.
    Still gonna have to solve most things with Firepower for lack of options so there is that.
    However there are a couple new and shiny things and the game has come a long way with stuff like Shasvastii, Varuna, OSS in the mix. On top of several Vanilla Factions like Nomads and CA cementing their place in the top tier.

    Additions like the Aquila FTO, CSUs in Links, Bolts being shiny and interesting are old news by now.
    What definitely hasn't been stale is the metagame around NCA. People have been forced to figure out how to deal with Kamaus and buffed Dakini MSRs. With how popular the 2 Sectorials running those two things are, pretty much everyone had a few run ins with that particular flavour of challenge.
    On the other side we have more and more spammy Vanilla Factions showing up that require a very different approach considering they're pretty much entirely a selection of "goodstuff" without the limitations that were definitely still there a couple years ago.
    NCA's old problem of running a fairly obvious Fusilier Lt is as present as ever with more Shasvastii resulting in more Speculos and pinpoint accurate Airborne Deployment in ITS.
    We did get a shiny new Bolt CoC, but that's a bit much of an investment to secure a 10 point dude.

    Hexas are a bit behind the curve next to Zulu Cobras and O-12's take on a similar troop.
    Neither Aida nor Uma are gamechangers either.
    In between Linkable CSUs, nu Bolts, Deva AHD and Aquila FTO the Specialist department has improved in variety. We definitely have more button pushers that want to be forward anyway than before to offset the lack of a midfield presence that's typical for NCA.

    NCA's highlight remains the Swiss who is as excellent as ever and will remain the core for most lists. Most Active turn pieces can end up assassinated before they get a chance to pull their weight when going 2nd. Haven't even heard about a single instance where someone managed to Sensor sweep and kill a Swiss Guard before it had a turn.
    Since ITS11 a Squalo HGL or CoC backed LT is definitely viable next to his counterpart in Varuna depending on the mission set. Having a sturdy Lt, HGL Datatracker or just simply the stopping power of a Multi HMG to ruin another TAG's day can be well worth considering. Running 2 similar lists one Swiss HMG one Squalo makes life hard for your opponents. Deploying optimal vs a Swiss HMG can easily be fatal against a S7 Reserve drop with 6-4 Move running up the field unopposed to sweep a flank or 9 Orders HGL raining death against clusters of troops.

    The baseline of a solid block of Orders combined with a healthy DZ ARO presence from CSU's, Auxilia and AVA3 Fugazis is still the same. Proceeding from there getting out of the DZ and holding ground has been improved by a lot. Cheap Drop Bears, E/Maulers and even Viral Mines on top of a Wildcard Aquila enables a whole different approach to carry the fight into the nomansland. Even the Machinist can join the Bolt Haris to get an Engineer and some D-Charges across the board.
    One of NCA's staples, the Fusilier Core Link, can have up to 7 potential link members and the Lt doesn't have to hang out with the squad by default anymore. While the ML is a pretty weak piece by today's standards, the old trick to set up a trap corner with a Swiss ML or Hexa MSR are a different beast than the usual ARO's people have been getting used to.
    In between TAG renaissance, Kriza Boracs, Sheskin, buffed Dakini HMGs most players don't perceive a Linetrooper as much of a threat anymore. There's a bunch of missions and equipment with Saturation Zones around that utterly cripples conventional linked AROs, but makes a TO threat all the more dangerous against an equally diminished Active Turn piece.

    NCA does holding its ground well. The inverted Alphastrike of a Swiss Missile demolishing a Link or a Hexa MSR pumping an unexpected Stun round into a TAG target halfway through its turn trying to take on a Fugazi is what turns NCA into one of Infinity's best performers in the Reactive Turn.
    Finding ways into turning that into a win is the challenge to beat.

    The cherry on top of all the new shiny things is the Deva AHD. The current state of the game doesn't really see a lot of use for defensive AHDs. However the Deva is unique thanks to Upgrade: Lightning allowing it to double down as a KHD. With 4+ Repeaters in your DZ a WIP15 AHD adds threat to any REM, HI or TAG trying to get close. NWI essentially provides complete protection against Maestro, one of the deadliest components of the Hacking game, Lightning is the rock to Trinity's scissors vs NWI and you have better chances to survive a Redrum hit than even an Interventor. With Pathfinder and Fugazi around you'll also be able to use her on the offense while sweeping for Camo.
    At BS12 with a BSG & Nanopulser a Deva is a respectable combatant. With ARM2 BTS3 NWI she's resilient against Spec Fire, DTWs and most weapons that will make their way into a DZ. Having a Prone model around that can bounce template shots of Unconscious bodies from unexpected angles is something your oppoents will forget about, simply because Hackers don't usually get to carry Shotguns. Before NCA got the Profile I've used the Hexa KHD and pretty much always ended up deploying as a Marker to have access to the Order anyway. As a whole the Deva is a massive utility and threat upgrade for NCA and far outperforms the Hexa by merely existing on the table. WIP15 Specialist and the some of the best Hacking synergy in the entire game is one hell of a package. Haven't been using anything else to unlock REMs ever since.

    With that Neoterra has been less reliant on adding an unhackable Assault piece but I still prefer to bring one. Personally I haven't ran a Bulleteer in forever, simply because the list's big gun is either a HI or TAG and found it important to add something that can shoot from inside a Hacking Area to clear a Repeater REM/0Moran from behind a building or walk past it. Even though it is hard to find the SWC the Hexa Spitfire is flat out better at dealing with the usual demands of a table and supporting something bigger and nastier.
    There are alternatives, but none have the raw MODs to convince things to Dodge, contributing to the Hexa's safety, or the Marker State to get past stuff you don't want to fight. Since he starts in your DZ you can even use him as a pseudo Sniper to get rid of a TR Bot, 4 dice on 3s vs a Dodge on 7s with from outside 32" isn't great, but still 0 risk so you can repeat until success.

    That said NCA struggles to go and get shit done in other areas. Lack of Smoke is obvious. No TO Infiltrator or AD Specialist for Objective runs. Lack of C+ or Superjump troops that can clear rooftops without stairs and ladders. We now have someone that can get there with Uma, but she has problems to Discover Markers, isn't a Specialist and is in deep shit when fighting a Chasseur, Zero or Naga in 8". A Pathfinders TF as the only real solution against a CC, with 3 Fugazi's around and a demand for fast Specialists taking one isn't too much of a burden on the list though.
    Their complete inability to efficiently destroy things in CC (hi there AC2) is the single biggest problem NCA has. It's still that much of a problem for them I'd change Sectorials in a heartbeat if a tournament includes Looting and Sabotaging.

    Not much can stop NCA from clearing a walk in zone for a Garuda. Who in turn solves the lack of mobility for the rest of the Sectorial. With all the other things NCA has and their limitations on midfield presence it's easy to forget about the 6-4 Murderbot.
    What has improved by leaps and bounds is the ability to deal with Smoke as well as CamO Markers. Swiss HMGs have no answers for them, but Bolt deployables, CSU Nanopulsers and Aquila FTO are all solutions to the problem.
    NCA DZs have real teeth. Both Auxilia and CSUs can punch way above their weight once in effective range and unlike the usual Warbands are effective out to 16". With DZ bound TO troops also providing a layered short range defense Swiss MLs are still pretty scary on a 15 and so is a LSG on 21s.

    Right now NCA is Infinity's dark horse in my book.
    High skill ceiling with sky as the limit. It's hard to find a Sectorial that relies as much on making good decisions during deployment and your reactive turn. NCA can attempt to win an entire game in ARO by placing a trap for the opponent's centerpiece, Core Link, key Specialist or Datatracker.
    Most Infinity Factions deploy a couple Mines, set up SF put out a Linked Sniper and call it a day as far as the Reactive turn is concerned. Usually I just try to concede as many disposable pieces as it takes to weather the storm, instead of trying to fight the other guy in his turn.
    For NCA I frequently attempt to turn the tables. Let him have the Fusilier ML and Warcor to convince the other guy the Swiss isn't watching that alley, then wait till he fights a Combi Fusilier in the open and can't fail Guts to fall back in Cover to spring the template on an 18 in his -3 Range.
    NCA lists are often centered around the obvious holes in your list. Even the best opponents can't be sure if you're running "standard" Swiss HMG + Hexa MSR, Swiss ML with a Garuda Spitfire drop a TAG Reserve Piece or run any other combination of things. Neoterra is far less predictable than your average Sectorial.
     
    #1 Teslarod, Nov 21, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2019
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  2. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Good, seing DM's PanO participation NCA could use good player ;)

    (it's especially funny when you see people claiming that all sectorials are equal ;P)
     
    #2 eciu, Nov 21, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2019
  3. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    It's a very good assessment.

    I'm also at a crossroads in 2020. VIRD in 2019 was great, but the tactical limitations of VIRD show through more and more. I'm keenly aware of sectorials with pieces that can "get there", a phenomenon you named, and one that I totally recognize and agree with. VIRD is weak in that department. Shock Army is better at it, mostly thanks to Dart and proper Camo infiltrators. NCA can do it... But mostly because you can get a Swiss working its way up the field, protected by (as you say) an incredible defensive game.

    I agree with your overall assessment of NCA's capability. High skill ceiling, amazing potential. Despite the very healthy influx of new options, their game hasn't really changed that much in the last few years. For the most part, I still reach for the same list(s) now that I did a few years ago, perhaps with the Aquila FTO mixed in if I want a Datatracker who is worth a damn. I like that Deva too. But as you say, the army's competitive cornerstone is still going to be Swiss + top-quality cheap units for orders and support + clever management of the ARO game. The Hexa feels outdated, but that somehow doesn't stop the MULTI Sniper from being a game-winning piece. I mean seriously game-winning too... The phenomenon you describe of simply wrecking a key Datatracker or vital specialist when it's 4-5 Orders into a crucial objective run is great.

    As you say too though, certain scenarios remain a Hard Stop for NCA. Looting & Sabotage is a chore. I've also seen a lot of Capture & Protect, and while VIRD or NCA can play a water-tight defensive game, actively trying to score major points in a mission like that is a dream. But it's missions like that where NCA has just enough versatility to get it done. Aquila FTO is good here, Garuda is good here (neither of them do a thing in Looting & Sabotage, but they're quite good for Getting There and fighting through heavy opposition.

    I'm probably still inclined to reach for Shock Army as my "desert island" Sectorial. If I was trapped on a desert island of Infinity, with only one playable PanO force, I'd reach for Shock Army for its versatility. But NCA has raw power in all the right places, in a way that the other Sectorials can't match: elite brute force pieces, that TO Camo Gotcha Game, high quality cheap order pool, and great weapon options like Nanopulsers, flamethrowers, shotguns, TO, g:synch, visors, all on exceptionally useful platforms.

    That's my long way of saying I entirely agree. NCA's in a nice place right now.
     
    #3 barakiel, Nov 21, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2019
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  4. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    This is especially amazing in NCA. Thanks to that you can really use Fugazis as great area denials due to using their Repeaters. All those SuiJuans, Mowangs, TAGs suddenly might find their movement heavily limited due to WIP15 AHD ^^ (not to mention that Deva himself is hard to be removed with WIP15 + Lighting + BTS3 and NWI (suddenly Redrum might not be as good as it always is)).

    To emphasise my point further:
    Zero KHD if hack attacking Deva has actually lower chance of wounding/killing Deva than vice versa! (unless Zero uses surrpise attack or repeater)

    http://inf-dice.ghostlords.com/n3/?...k_program=Lightning&p2.hack_b=1&p2.misc_mod=0

    Also it is very likely that Deva will survive a single Redrum Attack (only 20% to remove deva in single order)

    http://inf-dice.ghostlords.com/n3/?...k_program=Lightning&p2.hack_b=1&p2.misc_mod=0
     
    #4 eciu, Nov 21, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2019
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  5. Cadmo

    Cadmo Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the analysis @Teslarod. I haven't played NCA for a long time, maybe too long ... but your analysis left me wanting to try it for this ITS ... you could give some examples of lists or list bases to combine the "new" acquisitions of NCA and keep it balanced, it always depends on the scenarios, but to get an idea of what synergies you think may result strongly in the field ...

    Thanks
     
  6. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    Neoterran Capitaline Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    DEVA (Assault Hacking Device UPGRADE: Lightning) Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 28)
    CSU (Specialist Operative) Rifle + Light Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
    CSU (Specialist Operative) Rifle + Light Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
    FUSILIER HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 18)
    FUSILIER HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 18)
    FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    FUSILIER Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    SWISS GUARD HMG / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 68)
    HEXA MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 32)
    PEACEMAKER Heavy Shotgun + AUXBOT_3 / Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)
    [​IMG] AUXBOT_3 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5 [​IMG]1
    PATHFINDER DRONBOT Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    WARCOR (Sixth Sense L1) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)
    HEXA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 27)

    6 SWC | 299 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Your "Standard" NCA list. An extra Fusilier and dual HMG for some built in resilience to the link. Dual CSU specialists that have nanopulsers (SO good). Shotguns and templates in a Fusilier link, the dream is real. ;)
    I suppose you could replace the Hexa KHD with Uma but you really want a specialist with marker state to go grab objectives. Also, lol to the poor sucker that tries to hack your repeaters and faces a KHD and lightning. :P

    Options (mission dependent): replace the peacemaker and warcor with Aida Sawanson. Perfectly valid option, Viral mines are nasty. Hmm, I'm sure there must be some way to squeeze Uma into the list as well. Not sure if that is worth it though.
     
    #6 Death, Dec 1, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2019
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  7. miguelbarbo84

    miguelbarbo84 Well-Known Member

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    I would go for this instead. What do you think?

    Neoterran Capitaline Army──────────────────────────────────────────────────GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) FUSILIER Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) FUSILIER Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18) FUSILIER Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) CSU (Specialist Operative) Rifle + Light Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) BLACK FRIAR (Albedo, Biometric Visor L1) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser, Drop Bears / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28) SWISS GUARD HMG / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 68) HEXA MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 32) DEVA (Assault Hacking Device UPGRADE: Lightning) Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 28) PEACEMAKER Spitfire + AUXBOT_3 / Electric Pulse. (1 | 27) [​IMG] AUXBOT_3 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5 MACHINIST Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) MULEBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) PATHFINDER DRONBOT Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16) 5.5 SWC | 300 PointsOpen in Infinity Army
     
  8. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    When, not if, WHEN you lose your Swiss HMG then you have lost all your long ranged firepower. You lack a back up attacker. Its why I have the HMG Fusiliers. You also lack specialists that can be relied on to reach an objective. Its why I have the Hexa KHD, he is there to use his camo marker to get past enemy AROs and reach a key objective. Pano's lack of smoke means that any marker states we do have are key objective grabbers for us.
     
    #8 Death, Dec 1, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2019
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  9. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    @Death
    It's a good list.

    I've had luck with the Hexa KHD in group 1, the Sniper in group 2. The only reason for this is because you can deploy the Hexa KHD doesn't really need full Hidden Deployment to do its job, so you can deploy it as a TO Camo token. This means the Swiss can use the full amount of Orders each turn, and you won't feel rushed to reveal the Sniper. The Hexa KHD in Group 1 can also benefit from coordinated orders with the Swiss and Deva to get upfield and Score any useful objectives.

    This leaves the Sniper free to lurk in Group 2 as long as necessary, using that Hidden Deployment ARO whenever you need it, without feeling like you're robbing a useful Order from Group 1. You can also do a pretty decent Coordinated Attack with 3 Fugazi and a MULTI Sniper, if you ever need it.
     
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  10. NachoCola

    NachoCola Member

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    I take the Hexa KHD in nearly every list and rarely put it in hidden deployment, and it's usually in group 1 as well. It's such a good backup gunfighter to the Swiss HMG, so I like having the available orders to spend on it. If there is nothing for Swiss to kill then you can spend the orders on moving the Hexa up and pushing buttons.
     
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  11. Tongfa

    Tongfa ULTRA INSTINCT UKR

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    The swiss ML and the HMG are like one point in difference so they're interchangeable listwise. If you were to take the Swiss ML, what active turn pieces would you take to pick up the slack (the Swiss Light Shotgun doesn't count as an active turn gun do not give me that) <3
     
  12. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    I typically run Swiss HMG and Hexa Sniper. Dedicating the Swiss to ARO duty means I'd probably drop the Hexa Sniper, and free up plenty of points and SWC for an active-turn piece.

    I won't speak for Tesla, but the Garuda Spitfire, Bulleteer Spitfire and Hexa Spitfire are all quite good. The Deva Spitfire used to be a highly popular unit, and remains good depending a bit on matchup. The Fusilier HMG is no-frills, but can help clear a lane. There's even opportunity for the Sierra here... More expensive than the Fusilier, and requires more support, but is a better unit for "trying again" if you're faced with really heavy ARO opposition and have some bad luck.
     
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  13. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Point wise Swiss ML and HMG are almost interchangeable, yes (though usually at the cost of a Specialist - Auxilia FO/CSU SO).
    Gameplay wise they're very different at the top end. There's a lot of things more scared of a Hexa MSR ARO than a Swiss HMG ARO. And a lot of things able to beat an Active Turn ML but not a HMG, mainly linked stuff. The ML is a perfectly alright backup active turn gunner though. if you win the FTF the target gets hit with an EXP template and most targets have significantly better odds at dodging than shooting back vs TO. BS15 with a ML and Surprise Shot will however beat most Dodge attempts comfortably.
    You'll definitely still want a high B active turn piece somewhere in your list. Personally I like to run 3+ actual gunners and the nice thing about the Swiss ML is that he is a potent backup assault piece.
    You have a long 0 Rangeband and Suprise Shot so you can move up the field and blast people on 12-18s. Coordinated BS Attacks with whatever else you have on hand are also pretty deadly and once you're close, a LSG rolling on 21s before MODs is a lot better than people realize. Being able to hit target values the other side can only beat with a Crit and +1 to all BS results including double Crit chance vs exposed targets is an upside. The ML Profile is much, much better within 8" than the HMG Profile, even Shotguns often only shoot back on 9s vs TO, you're likely to beat close range Smoke or Engage AROs and the template gives ample opportunity to maximize damage against multiple targets. Ending a Rambo run tucked back in a corner in Marker State, you're also pretty tough to kill where the HMG tends to get in trouble against close range weapons and is very reliant on SF to weather the storm.

    No idea yet if I can make a list around a Swiss ML (actually looking into running 2) work reliably. It worked fine in the past, but all the people I played against back then have improved by a leaps and bounds and I haven't really ran one in a tournament outside an Escalation League.
    I have no intention of playing this if it doesn't perform consistent, that's really the thing to figure out. It'll really depend on being able to nail that ARO reveal and make half a turn of Order investment go poof.
    What I do know is that it doesn't work any worse on a cramped table, on the contrary. It's deadly in the open, but also has to deal with all your opponent's offensive pieces that way. The best way to make it work has always been to either gang up on the same target with another ARO (usually linked Fusilier ML/MSR or Hexa MSR) or to wait for a flank shot against a target (ideally entire links) in the open.

    Normally I'd always go for a B4 gun on the most expensive piece and that might still be true in NCA. But instead of grabbing the 2nd Swiss I now prefer the addition of the Aquila FTO or Hexa Spitfire. The Aquila HMG has some pretty serious problems and combines badly with a Swiss SWC weapon. 4 SWC spent means you'll only be able to include one more Hexa or Fusilier SWC Weapon. Core linked the Aquila is still hitting pretty much anything with 4 dice on 12s up to 32" away. That's 3 worse than the HMG, but 0 SWC, you'll have that Fusilier/CSU Link anyway to enable it. My main gripe with the Aquila HMG is how easily it dies in the Reactive turn. The FTO fixes that problem with B2 Sixth Sense AROs making it much harder to kill. It also adds a Specialist who wants to be upfield, something NCA isn't all that great at.
    One other thing the Aquila FTO does (or maybe it's the CSU's) is enabling a piece I've downright never used before - the Fusilier LGL. With the entire Link up the field it's often not even the Spec Fire you want him for. Having that can be very important, but it's often niche. What you end up finding use for is that one guy around the corner in B2 Impact Template range you can splash by shooting Unconscious REMs, Netrods or Discovered Mines.
    The only downside to spending those 4 points is usually 1 less LT decoy on the board and a fairly obvious Fusilier left in the backfield.
    However that list ends up with only Swiss and Aquila as proper assault pieces and 2 is a little low there for my taste.

    My verdict on Bulleteers is simple, while cheap and pretty good in a face to face they are terribly unreliable. With Spitfires they want to stand in front, but their massive Silhouette makes them inconsistent performers, they get stuck on chokepoints, Repeaters, stairs and ladders or the threat of eating a template from a corner guard. Wouldn't run one anymore unless I really want an extra gunner or really can't afford extra points/0.5 SWC. Would otherwise always scratch it to upgrade something else to a Guard or make space for a Garuda.
    Much prefer the Hexa Spitfire nowadays. Easier to claim Cover, TO allows to get in Range and mitigate the risk of getting shot back and sometimes Electric Pulse shenanigans. And comes with HD to make sure you'll be able to use your investment before it dies to a random Rifle catching it outside of cover.

    Conceptually current preference would be to go for some disposable choices like a Garuda BSG, a medium assault piece like the Hexa Spitfire and the usual Fusiliers to pick up the slack. The Swiss will have to make up for hogging so many points in his first ARO turn and following up as 2nd wave assault piece.
     
    #13 Teslarod, Dec 10, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2019
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