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All Glory for the State Empire

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Proletarian, Nov 25, 2019.

  1. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Sample size isn't quite the disqualifier people think it is at times.

    It only takes a sample size of 1 to prove a bulletproof window isn't bulletproof.

    It only takes a sample size of 1 to prove a faction is good enough to win a reasonable skill level and sized tournament with, hence making them a 'contender' i.e., something that has a reasonable possibility of winning something.

    The main thing I think people are objecting to is really tone though. I don't think anyone really objects to someone coming to a different conclusion than Proletarian did from the same information, if they did it reasonably civilly.
     
    #41 Hachiman Taro, Nov 27, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    That depends entirely on the number of variables.

    A bulletproof window has one job, one metric, and the sample size needed is only as big as the production line merits and how many bullets the windows are meant to be able to withstand. Reasonably a random sample of maybe one per hundred/thousand produced to ensure reliability.

    For a game with vast number of variables you won't be able to establish much if it lacks lists that can hack, mass camo, has impersonation, fluke of chance makes game critical rolls like Impersonation or Infiltration fail, and so on.

    Sample size is lower than you might think, but a sample of 1 is never, ever, reliable, unless the total tested for is exactly 1. What was proven was that IA was a contender for that tournament. (Now, any reasonable person experienced in the game will realize that there exists no faction that aren't a contender, game balance isn't that bad. Even MRRF is a contender in a Limited Insertion tournament, and they can barely field more than one list for it)
     
  3. Proletarian

    Proletarian Well-Known Member

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    Which was entirely my point: Invincible Army is good enough as it currently stands to win tournaments.

    I get very frustrated when people make blanket statements about whether or not an army or sectorial is "viable". Invincible Army is viable because I have proven that it can be by winning this event. Was it top table at a satellite? No, but let's be real, there are very few of us that get to experience top table at a satellite even if we run the so called powerhouses like Varuna. Could you take it into an event and have good chances (based off your own skill levels)? Definitely yes.
     
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I agree, but at the same time you have to allow for a conversation to actually happen without expecting a massive list of disclaimers. If I were to state that Invincible Army's balance is way off or not good enough to make them fun to keep playing, sentiments that I have and often voice, you need to remember that there are a lot of qualifiers that I leave unspoken because it is not worth it to explain them all the time.
    Can I win tournaments with IA? Yes. Have I done so? Yes. Does it have to be LI? No, I won a non-LI tournament, granted that our best player wasn't participating in that tournament, but still. How's my meta? Very friendly, but I'm absolutely playing Infinity on hard mode. I still have enough experience to prove to me that I should not play IA until N4 shakes things up because it is not worth my time to constantly have to combat my feeling of playing an inferior force that usually settles in around turn 2.

    I gave IA a big chance and the lists I had to build to make them start performing well enough told me I might as well play a faction designed for purpose and containing the tools I need to overcome certain hard-counters instead of improvising those tools.
     
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  5. Lambanator

    Lambanator Member

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    Hi David (Triumph),

    I think despite what you perceive to be a well-intentioned initial post, you have lost site of the goal posts and instead have shifted to insulting our VIC community, WA Community and even your local Tassie Community. As someone who runs and plays in tournaments yourself, you should understand the amount of effort that actually goes into running these events. You of all people should understand how insulting it is when someone belittles all the hard work you put into running an event.

    Unfortunately your original point that IA is not a top tier tournament army (in your opinion) has got lost in your personal and overall community insults. Whilst you may not have perceived this is the way you would come off, unfortunately it has and you have continued to double down on your remarks instead of apologizing and moving on.

    You have caused quite a stir all over the Australian Infinity Community and it is not a positive one, I would suggest you apologize to all the parties you have made poor remarks against.

    I look forward to playing you on the table one day, maybe you can teach me a thing or two……


    Cheers Mate, Julian
     
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  6. Proletarian

    Proletarian Well-Known Member

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    I was happy to have a discussion about the faction and how it played. But when the first comment was "you're wrong because all your opponents were too shit to really matter" instead of something productive it's a bit hard?
     
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  7. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    Hey mate, just wanted to reiterate - I'm very happy to arrange your rego for CanCon if you'd like to get any experience outside of your local meta to help broaden your horizons here :)
     
  8. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    @Lambanator

    is it necessary to semi-break the anonymity of the user?

    dunno how Triumph feels about this but I must admit I’m not a fan of naming and shaming, even if I don’t have a horse in this race.
     
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  9. Proletarian

    Proletarian Well-Known Member

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    Myself, Lambanator and Rob Sheppard have all announced our names on international podcasts, as did from opponents in round 2 and 4. Its easy to hurl abuse when you're anonymous and everyone in the Australian community knows Triumph from outside the forums.
     
  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Dropping your own anonymity in a podcast is their own choice, but making that choice doesn't justify also making that decision for someone else.

    Triumph isn't a no-faced unknown recently regged user, either, he's been around a long time and I'm not sure he qualifies as anonymous for what it's worth. I've had him on my ignore list before and I'm wary of supporting everything he says, but also remember that he's currently being dog-piled, exposed to bullying tactics, someone even felt the need to create a new account just to slag him off, and now he's got an unspoken threat of being doxxed hanging over him for no good reason.
    There's a lot in this thread to be uncomfortable about, so I hope that @Triumph and everyone dog-piling him can scale it back, agree to disagree, and tone down the discussion about the players and focus on the game instead.
     
  11. Dargoth

    Dargoth New Member

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    I'm not sure anyone created a new account to slag him off. Of the four people who have commented and have low post counts three of us are members of the Perth meta and posting using our ITS names. No burner accounts, we just don't tend to engage on the forums.
    As for bullying allegations, Triumph has had ample opportunity to engage constructively but has instead chosen to double down on the insults, refuse to acknowledge any possibility that he might not be the font of all truth and generally been a colossal dick. Personally I don't think that bad behavior deserves the protection of anonymity. If he truly believes he's just being 'rational' then he should be fine with putting his name to it.

    edited for crap grammar
     
    #51 Dargoth, Nov 27, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
  12. Koni

    Koni BanHammer
    CB Staff

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    I'm politely asking to down the tone and both parts to calm down and move to a more constructive and respectful discussion. There's no need from any side to underestimate any meta, namecalling (don't know if I'm using correctly...I mean, using real names) or insult fellow players.

    Remember that all of you have something in common: you love to play Infinity. And that's so great :)

    Let's keep it civil please.

    Thank you for your collaboration.
     
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  13. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    The english slang you're looking for is 'doxxing'. Which hasn't been done here yet, but it's toed along the line.
     
  14. Questor

    Questor New Member

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    Posting in the forums for one of the first times also here, not to dogpile, or anything, just that the majority of our chat is on chat groups currently. I do however feel the need to make a couple of comments. I am also commenting using my ITS account so I have no desire to 'hide'
    I was at the event in question,having travelled across the country to do so, and while my own performance was poor (my dice gave me the middle finger a few more times than I think was fair, and also I was out of practice. No sadness here though, I had a great time) I feel that every one of us who took part, and the people who put such effort to run the event are being denigrated by the comments by Triumph.

    I like to think the best of people so I don't think this was malicious, but you have to remember that even if an event is not elite, that doesn't mean that nothing can be learned from it. Particularly for those people who have a good understanding of the game, even in a one sided game, things can be learned, so to say that what Proletarian posted isn't relevant is disingenuous at best.
    Also, to say that an event isn't relevant if it uses an optional extra THAT IS IN THE PACK POSTED BY THE GAME CREATORS strikes me as odd. It was an opportunity to play the game in a slightly different way, that doesn't mean that it automatically doesn't count in terms of faction comparison. Surely it's just another data point? Maybe it's because I come from a scientific research background, but more data is always good.

    Triumph. Maybe this event wasn't filled with 'ZOMG top 10' players but does that matter? Proletarian posted his OPINION that IA has the potential to be very competitive, and attacking someone's opinion, especially one that's based on objective data, just seems kinda petty.

    I will continue to lurk and play the game I love with people I enjoy playing with, and I will definitely be back over in Perth next year. Maybe come over, you never know, you might even have a good time!
     
  15. Sedral

    Sedral Jīnshān Task Force Officier

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    Anyway, regardless of ITS ranking, tournament results or whatever, we have an actual (and fairly detailed I must say, even though the opponents's list would be appreciated as well) report to comment on, which is far more telling imo as it allow us to pinpoint the games turning points as well as some mistakes made by either player.

    In fact I'd like to ask @Proletarian if he thinks there's anything his opponents could have done better, perhaps even easily crush you in doing so? I mean there are 3 situations that have been a bit of an eyebrow raiser when I read your battle reports:

    vs NCA: On his second turn your opponents used all his orders to try and burn your hac tao. I feel like going all in with the AHD swiss would have been the correct choice here and could have possibly left you dead in the water, instead of trying to template a PH14 ARM5 model.

    VS Shasvastii: Don't you think your opponent could have simply obliterated your haris with sheskin on his first turn had he decided not to spend any order on the speculo?

    VS Varuna: Your opponent ended up wasting 6 orders doing speculative fire against your haris, don't you think your opponent could have used other more efficient tools to hunt it down?


    Personally I think the Invincible Army is too lacking defensively, especially lists based on a zhanshi team. The haidao sniper is good, but he isn't invincible (eh) and once he is down (or bypassed) your opponent can target your few offensive units fairly easily. Units like sheskin or the swiss guard are especially hard to defend against, and I feel like a player who's not afraid of taking decisive actions can easily cripple the IA to the point of no return.
     
  16. Proletarian

    Proletarian Well-Known Member

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    Great Questions!

    RE NCA game: My opponents hacker Swiss was on the opposite side of the table to the Hac Tao and there wasn't a clear line of attack across the board. To get to my Hac Tao and Mowang he would have also had to get within ZoC of my Daoying Hacker that was lurking in the building above so potentially copping double AROs if he wasn't careful.

    RE Shas Game: Again the terrain layout was quite punishing for the lines of attack. He only spent the one order on the speculo and that wouldn't have been enough to get Sheskin in a good enough position to make a full run. She did take a shot at the HaiDao which thankfully tanked the one hit she got through and then it dropped prone to be safe.

    RE Varuna Game: I do agree that trying to spec fire for that many orders was probably a mistake. If I had been him I would have advanced up both zulu cobras to cover the middle objectives more effectively, and then probably used the hidden crocman more aggressively on the opposite flank to the core and haris to try deny some orders.

    On your thoughts of a lacking ARO game: I'm not sure the ARO game is one I want to be playing. Even the heaviest pieces of ARO tech will go down to a well coordinated attack, and the usual strategy of just making your opponent waste order killing little shit doesn't synergise well with the generally lower model count of Invincibles so I just don't try really.

    I certainly agree that zhanshi are squishy and besides the TR bot and the HaiDao sniper there really wasn't a huge ARO threat on the board, but I'm actually okay with that. I've mentioned it elsewhere, primarily on White Noise, but I am an aggressive player. I'll often take first into a traditionally second turn mission. If I need to go second I'll tend to defend shorter firelanes with more disposable troops to save my big pieces for a strong punch back when my turn starts. That strategy seems to play dividends for me but I can certainly see it going awry as well.

    PS: I tried to list as much of the enemies army lists as I could during the setup part of the recap but my memory only goes so far. I'm writing all of this without any notes so please be kind.
     
  17. Sedral

    Sedral Jīnshān Task Force Officier

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    @Proletarian Thanks for the quick answer, as always it isn't easy to figure what's possible or not without a clear picture of the battlefield.

    I'm not talking about cross table AROs, or even trying to defend the objectives, but simple DZ defense that makes your opponent think twice before going all-in with a sphinx/Sheskin/Achilles and kick your teeth in. It might be a meta thing, but around my parts we're not afraid of ramboing with TAGs and the like if there's a good opening, and most IA lists I see tend to be full of openings.

    Now I agree that Yu-jing shouldn't defend "agressively", since the main strength of our faction is the exceptionnaly brutal active turn (thanks to order shenanigans allowing premium attack pieces to run at full steam) we can afford to lose some ground and retake it later, but a savvy opponent might try to punch you first and you still need to survive that. ISS can defend with an ocean of chain rifles and mad-traps, while vanilla adds a bunch of minelayers and a strong camo game on top of it, but IA feels ridiculously defenseless compared to them...
     
    #57 Sedral, Nov 27, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
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  18. Stuffist

    Stuffist Well-Known Member

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    Well, to be fair, most of our models in IA are linked at least in Haris. And I often prefer to defend myself with B2 Combi ORAs intead of mines+dodge.
    Better if you can put your B2 Boarding Shotgun as first bumper - but that's not always possible due to terrain or value of said BSG holder.

    And it teach you how to deploy safely too - but I agree that it means getting stomped a certain number of times until you got it.
     
  19. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    It's fine, people on here know who I am my name isn't a secret (our country's gaming community is alot smaller than the EU and US) and I'm very used to people disagreeing with me. Other people in here are very clearly quite emotional but nothing in this thread has bothered me.


    I'm not apologising for anything. The Perth event was not a good example to use in a discussion about game balance for two reasons that have been covered, I stand by that comment. If people want to feel victimised over this then they are free to do so, I'm not their parent and I frankly don't have time or any real interest in talking them out of their emotional treehouses. I'm not the person throwing insults around here, everything I've said has been backed up with reasoning and an explanation.


    I don't have any desire to spend money traveling and I have nothing to prove. Feel free to come down and visit me though if you want games you know where my meta is located.
     
    #59 Triumph, Nov 27, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
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  20. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    This is not exactly a particularly good example of being a welcoming and friendly community, is it.
     
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