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Speculative Fire + ARO

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by HANGMAN, Nov 27, 2019.

  1. HANGMAN

    HANGMAN Member

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    Hi guys,

    Question: I have a Kung Shi that my Yan Huo missile launcher can see. There are enemies around the Kuang Shi that are in smoke, but are also part of a 5 man link team. The Kuang Shi goes into Biolocator mode and becomes targeted.

    My Yan Huo shoots the Kuang Shi, thus is the target of the attack. The blast templates covers enemy link team members. What is their ARO? Can they shoot the Yan Huo or only dodge at -3?

    Thanks!
     
  2. HANGMAN

    HANGMAN Member

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    I read that they can ARO and they are all ftf rolls...
     
    #2 HANGMAN, Nov 27, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
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  3. Belgrim

    Belgrim Well-Known Member

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    Every miniature that is affected by a template can declare Dodge ARO.
    If it does not have LoF to the source of the template it suffers an additional -3 to the roll.

    Someone correct me if im wrong.
     
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  4. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Also if their LoF to the attacker is only blocked by the smoke and not LoF blocking terrain they can shoot back.
     
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  5. Belgrim

    Belgrim Well-Known Member

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    With the usual -6
     
  6. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Not if they're part of a big fireteam like OP said.
     
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  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Like Hecaton's post above, the -3 doesn't apply to any Dodge due to Fireteam of 4+ :)
     
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  8. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    The wiki for Zero Visibility Zone says "Any trooper who is the target of a BS Attack into or out of a Zero Visibility Zone, or whose LoF traverses a Zero Visibility Zone, may respond to the attacker even without LoF, provided the trooper is facing the attacker." (Emphasis in original).

    Here, the Kuang Shi is the target of the attack, so I'm inclined to think the other troops can't shoot back.

    If I'm right, then it doesn't matter if the other troops have sixth sense (due to the fireteam). Sixth sense removes the -6 penalty, but doesn't otherwise affect whether and when a unit can shoot through smoke.
     
  9. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Everyone affected by the template is a target, so gets to shoot back even if they don't have Sixth Sense. Although it's not explicitly spelled out in the template rules, the rules repeatedly use 'main' target (which infers that the other Troopers are 'secondary' targets), and one of the examples is titled 'Teardrop Impact Template example. All targets react by Shooting.'.

    @HANGMAN minor note - Speculative Fire isn't involved, so your thread title may have caused some confusion!
     
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  10. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    there is only one target, the kuang shi, the other models are not targets, but are "affected" by the template, so even if they are in a 4-man fireteam, they cannot ignore the -6 from smoke (but they ignore the -3 to dodge), and that shot is not a FtF, but a normal roll

    Also, keep in mind that, all the other models are only affected if the spec fire attack is successful.
     
  11. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    a) Template rules includes a notion of main target (infering there are secondary target, as @ijw said above, so no need for me to re-write it), so all trooper affected by the template are a target => Sixth sense requirement is fullfilled

    b) Rules as written use the wording "targets" (plural) to talk about the trooper affected by an AoE weapon :" For example, if you declare an Attack using a Template Weapon, all troopers or targets in base contact or inside the Area of Effect of the Template are affected by the Attack declared.". So all trooper under a template are targets of said template => Sixth sense requirement is fullfilled

    c) When using BS attack to answer a template shot through smoke you are responding to an attack, which is exactly what the sixth sense lvl 2 effect says : "Sixth Sense L2 allows its user to respond to Attacks against him through a Zero Visibility Zone without suffering the usual -6 MOD."

    So anyone with sixth sense lvl 2 (on their profile or with FT 4+) under a template can ARO with :
    - dodge without -3 malus
    - BS Attack without any malus related to zero visibility zone or surprise shot (if they have LoF on he shooter)
     
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  12. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    I am checking the wiki, and I cannot find any reference that the other affected troopers are also "targeted" by the attack (or targets for the attack). The use of plural, is because you could have B2 or higher and split it between various targets, not because everything under a template is a target (really, if it is there, please quote it because I cannot find it).
     
  13. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    My pleasure :

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Template_Weapons_and_Equipment#Template_Examples
    Read the third example "Teardrop Impact Template example. All targets react by Shooting."
    The hellcat shoot only the first fusilier (main target) without splitting its burst (same configuration as example number one).
    Yet the title use targets, plural.
    So all fusiliers are targets


    Read the fourth FAQ regarding ARO impact template vs multiple activation (start by "Q: When a group of troopers activate")
    As the shooter is in ARO, he cannot split its burst. So he shoot only one active trooper and affect multiple troopers.
    Yet the FAQ uses targets, plural.
    So all affected trooper are targets, no only the main one
     
    #13 Arkhos94, Nov 27, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
  14. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    As already pointed out, this is false.

    This is false even if they didn't count as being targets - the roll for the Missile Launcher would be a Face to Face Roll against each individual Trooper's Dodge.

    Speculative Fire is not being used. The attacker is a Hac Tao with a Missile Launcher, which is only capable of standard direct fire. In any case, the template is placed and the Troopers affected when the BS Attack is declared - not when it is successful!
     
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  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Template_Weapons_and_Equipment#Area_of_Effect

    Underline emphasis added

    Area of Effect
    The Area of Effect of a Template is the area it covers with a single declaration of use. For example, if you declare an Attack using a Template Weapon, all troopers or targets in base contact or inside the Area of Effect of the Template are affected by the Attack declared.
     
  16. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    yes, that was supposed to be deleted (I misread the direct template one, but seems the forum save function did something strange, there are some things in that post that I deleted, but there are again, wtf).

    @Arkhos94, those are examples, lot of people do not accept examples as rules (because there have been some examples that go against their own rules in the past).

    this seem the most clear one, but still...it doesn't say that all affected troopers are target, but uses troopers and targets as the same.
     
  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @Armihaul does your meta play it the other way?!
     
  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    They use "target" everywhere in the rules:

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/ARM_Roll

    To make an ARM Roll, roll a d20, add the value of the ARM Attribute of the target and compare the result to the Damage value of the Attack.​

    You also have stuff in the examples for templates:

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Templ...mplate_example._All_targets_react_by_Shooting.

    Teardrop Impact Template example. All targets react by Shooting.
    Basically, the rules aren't very strict about what actually defines a target, nor consistent about it.
     
  19. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I think you are misrepresenting people's feelings about this. Lots of people don't like the fact that some rules/interactions can only be found in examples, but that - necessarily - means that they are understanding that the examples do, in fact, contain rules.
     
  20. HANGMAN

    HANGMAN Member

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    Sorry about having 'speculative fire' in the title. I was going to list another scenario with spec firing a grenade from a Krakot onto the Kuang Shi, but figured it wasn't necessary.
     
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