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All Glory for the State Empire

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Proletarian, Nov 25, 2019.

  1. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    Basically and in short: infinity has an iteration cycle (test and dev, if you prefer) that's as painfully slow as any wargame. A game a week, or a game a fortnight, is a pretty normal basis for most players to build their perspectives. Why then would you rob yourself of five games worth of useful experience in a competitive format just because it's not competitive enough?
     
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  2. Proletarian

    Proletarian Well-Known Member

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    Haha thanks?

    It actually worked to my favour because my round 4 opponent spent the saturday night reading up on Invincible Army tactics and I put down absolutely nothing that he was expecting...
     
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  3. Peasant

    Peasant New Member

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    Thanks for you input Triumph, quality stuff, incredible job! I must have missed you at South Perth Brawl when I was facing the rest of the low skilled scrubs, your analysis is bang in, surely you were there!

    Truly, I can't imagine what has prompted you to actually post such rubbish. OP has posted an insightful report, to entertain and share some knowledge and experience, and you try to discount it because it's not a 100 player event. You have been absolutely triumphant, well done my dude.
     
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  4. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    @Triumph will we see you next CanCon? I'm happy to help organise a ticket for you if you haven't registered - it shouldn't be any trouble. :)
     
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  5. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom

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    Excellent report. I really enjoyed your good memory and very delicate tactic to boot up! Since you remember all your opponent's list, I could imagine myself acting against it.

    No surprise, Zhanshi core is the key. I too, did had some fun using the 'Not-Invincible-Invincible Army', Many Haidaos as possible one being MSV2 as a staple. Excellent job. From now is my questions/feelings about your game;

    1. Your 'main' list included Tai Sheng Haris, who I am hesitating to use since she got a massive aggro to everyone. Do you have know-how to save her ass upon Alpha Strike?
    2. I was pretty surprised to see an aggressive Daoying Lt with a Boarding Shotgun. Was it able because you had a Tai Sheng CoC, or the game forced your captain to pull the shotgun trigger?
    3. Mowang-Hact Duo, thats what I wanna call a beefcake. Still, IA's worst nightmare is an E/M weapon; were you aware for it?
    4. How an Earth Trauma-Fusil can activate the console?!
    5. TAK seems to be a major piece, were you considering meeting them as you go up?
    Thats all, and I totally enjoyed the readings. Well done!
     
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  6. Proletarian

    Proletarian Well-Known Member

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    1: Every opponent certainly felt afraid of that Haris thats for sure. I tended to deploy them all in full cover and not leave them out for ARO first turn, then let the other pieces in the list cover them, with the HaiDao BS be the first point of contact. Most people don't want to have to run through the HaiDao sniper, the TR bot only to come up against B2 on 19s.
    2: Tai Sheng was not a CoC unfortunately. I tend to use the DaoYing as a specialist button pusher, before pulling back into camo to be safe. All the times she had to enter a gunfight was purely because of the situation I was in. Definitely not part of Plan A.
    3: EM is certainly a threat. The only list I faced that had EM was the Shas one and I paid the price for it. I've got a pretty good working memory of all the factions units so it was relatively okay to judge what they may or may not have in the list and play accordingly.
    4: Trauma Doc. Occasionally WIP 12 comes through for you.
    5: One of my regular opponents is a solid Ariadnan player, and TAK in particular. List 1 has two MSV2 units to deal with them relatively handily, and List 2 has a Hac Tao which is a hard not for TAK to crack without MSV of their own.
     
  7. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

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    @Proletarian done more than enough to prove his arguments practically both here and in some of the biggest tournaments in Aus, (Making them some of the largest in the world by far)

    Ignore him or decry him if you want, but the only people you are hurting and limiting by not listening to his advice and experience are yourselves
     
  8. Ugin

    Ugin Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    People sometimes get confused between being rude with honest, realistic with headstrong. Lacking the sense of self is not a big deal, but iterative denial against negative feedbacks usually indicates that there might be some reasons to be introspective.
     
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  9. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Well, I feel like Infinity is the kind of game where a very good player with a mediocre list will probably crush a mediocre player with a very good list.

    So even the faction that won the most statistically perfect case study of a very large tournament probably doesn't tell you as much as the assessment of the player who ran it. I know I listen pretty closely to feedback from good players even in casual games for fun.

    So here you have a very good player (who you know is a very good player both through results, and perhaps more importantly through the acknowledgement of several other very good players, some in this thread) giving us the benefit of his insight for free. I'm probably not as good as some others (though I do a bit better than holding my own generally) but he crushed me when I was so far 4-0 at the country's largest tournament this year.

    I think it'd be wise to take what we usefully can from it, ask any questions he's gracious enough to answer, say thank you - and move on.

    We don't have to all agree about everything to be nice to one another. If we did, we'd probably all run the same list, and be bored of the game already ;)
     
    #29 Hachiman Taro, Nov 27, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
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  10. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I think you are getting emotional and not actually reading what I'm writing. I am not saying your meta is bad or that mine is better, I am saying that I do not think that the event had enough hardcore highskill level players because it appears to be mostly populated by players of a similar level to my own group. I don't use my tournaments to call IA bad because they're not a good representation of the game, but at the same time I also don't think you can use this tournament to call IA good because they're not a good representation of the game.

    Having one or two very good players isn't enough to make it work. To put it in sports terms, it'd be like holding a local tennis comp and Federer turns up to play. Federer could play half asleep, hungover, with his wrong hand and still dumpster everyone because there aren't enough Nadals and actual rivals to punish or exploit any mistakes he makes. You need all the high seed players around to actually make that work.

    Don't get me wrong, IA may very well be good and your opinion of them may be the correct one but this tournament isn't good proof of it. It doesn't have enough of the right type of players and it uses a bunch of rules that invalidate a significant portion of the game.


    I am completely open to dialogue about anything when it's done right. This here isn't it being done right. Like I said, I also don't run around using my own events to push either side of the discussion because they also don't warrant any merit. I don't think that's an unfair stance to take at all.


    I don't think I'm being unfair. I've said I don't consider my own meta to be a good competitive indicator, and then pointed out that the majority of players who attended fall into a similar category as my own local meta.


    Putting everything else aside I don't think it's fair to say that this tournament is proof of how good or bad anything is when this tournament straight up made a bunch of armies invalid. Maybe IA has a massive problem with order spam, or maybe it's really good against it. This tells us nothing because none of the lists present at the event had to deal with it thanks to Tactical Window.

    The game wasn't balanced around Tactical Window, or Limited Insertion for that matter. They're not good things to try to bring to a discussion on Infinity's game balance.


    Regardless of how good the player is or how good his history is I don't think this is a good argument to make. If he wants to argue that IA is good because of TacAw, or Zuyongs, or whatever I'm all for it, but trying to use this event as an argument? Definitely not. I do not think it is a good representation of competitive game balance due to both the modifiers invalidating armies (and keep in mind I also said the same thing for IP the last two years, this isn't moving goalposts).
     
    #30 Triumph, Nov 27, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
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  11. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    I'd still listen to him if he said the racquet he used seemed good though.
     
  12. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    If he cited that event I wouldn't, if he said it's a great racquet because he used it at Wimbledon then I'd be happy with that answer.

    Good players, even if they're excellent, can have personal beliefs or biases that give them the wrong opinion. See OP, while a high skill player, believed the Liu Xing had good odds on the explode attempt when statistically it wasn't really the case. I trust more in opinions when they're backed by viable information.
     
    #32 Triumph, Nov 27, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
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  13. Proletarian

    Proletarian Well-Known Member

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    By what metric do you evaluate viable information? How many people do you need in a tournament before it becomes valid? Do I need to go over to play Rob or Lockie Carter to prove somethings value to you?

    I never once stated that Invincible Army was some powerhouse or hidden gem. I merely stated that based upon my result at a moderate sized tournament I feel like they have been unfairly put down as "uncompetitive". Perhaps my own personal skill played a factor in that assessment but would you rather play a game against a skilled opponent or an opponent that only takes the "powerful" stuff? I for one would always choose the more skilled opponent.

    And by your own metric OSS isn't a "competitive" because it didn't win NovaCore or CanCon. There can only be so many extra large tournaments and sometimes those strong choices come up against bad luck, or they were playing poorly that day.

    Also, you continue to insult alot of really good players by calling them out as "not good enough rivals". I'm fine with you arguing that Invincible Army isn't the bestest, but please stop denigrating some absolutely fantastic and enjoyable opponents.
     
    #33 Proletarian, Nov 27, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
  14. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom

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    Let the others decide; but you mentioned about Invincibles could play brute force midrange game, and since I like to include multiple Zhencha upon my list the Lei Gong seems to be a proper counterpart for our maligned scouter.

    What is your opinion about him? I bet we could expect his profile in this year.
     
  15. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I'm mostly looking at the players present. You can have an extremely competitive 16 player tournament if it's set up with qualifying rounds etc to get there. But if I look at the players present and that majority of players are placing the same as my local meta then honestly it's not really good enough to use as a competitive metric.

    Additionally anything that runs Tactical Window, Limited Insertion, or any other game changing extra is straight away disqualified. We can't discuss faction balance when we're modifying how the game plays in a major way before lists are even drawn up.


    You really did. I don't really know how to interpret this quote any other way.

    "There’s been a lot of talk about how viable they are as a competitive sectorial/army and I would like to think that this result proves that they are definitely a strong contender, if perhaps not one of the power house factions."


    I don't recall saying that you need to win any tournament to prove that any army is competitive. I said that this tournament is not a good indicator on whether or not IA is competitive, positive or negative, and that you should take them to one of the events that are a good indicator and report back on how you feel about them after that and what happened.


    That's not an insult it's just honesty. They're not players I would classify of the higher levels of competitiveness and I have a direct metric to back up that opinion. The majority of players who attended the Perth tournament are of a similar skill level to my local meta, and I do not believe my local meta is good enough to be used as an indicator of competitiveness in the game. Do you think I hate everyone in my local meta too? Because that's not the case, I spend alot of time and money organising and running local events for them. The reality is though our local events are not as competitive as the larger satellite tournaments that are organised elsewhere in the country.
     
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  16. xt828

    xt828 New Member

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    That quote means that that the author believes they are a contender, but not a powerhouse faction.
     
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  17. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    To me this seems a really strange argument. You would or wouldn't listen to a highly skilled persons assessment based on your own personal assessment of the quality of the event he was at (and you weren't). Is Einstein only worth listening to at an international physicists conference? Actually, he might have valuable insights about physics after talking it over with his cat. Worth listening to at least.

    Of course, even experts have biases. All information has its limitations. That doesn't mean it's not useful to pay attention, and appropriate respect to.

    Also,

    I haven't done the probability myself, and I find that sentence a little hard to read, but I read it as saying there's almost a 62% chance the Lui Xing inflicts a wound. I feel like that's more a question of opinion than statistics whether it's 'good odds'. It seems there's a better chance of it happening than not happening at least, and to assess how 'good' that chance is you really have to evaluate the total game state. Which frankly I'd trust someone who I know is an excellent player who was there and making the call, and won the game and the tournament, than someone I don't, and who wasn't, and who didn't second guessing them on the internet.
     
    #37 Hachiman Taro, Nov 27, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
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  18. Peasant

    Peasant New Member

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    ITS ranking doesn't mean shit, it's shaped by the players around you. The average ITS score of a meta is not comparable to others. Please stop posting. You are embarrassing yourself.
     
  19. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I'm not talking about an ITS ranking, I'm talking about direct tournament results. They went to the same tournaments as my locals, and placed the same as my local players when playing against them in the same event. Hence they are on the same level as my local players, so if I don't think my local meta is competitive enough to warrant consideration, then we have to consider this when looking at whether or not this event is competitive enough to warrant consideration when evaluating placings.


    It's all relative. 62% odds for a model that can safely rinse and repeat the attack from range like with an HMG is probably decent odds. 62% for a one shot attempt on a very cheap suicide model like a Yuan Yuan would also be probably decent because low consequences of failure.

    62% for an expensive 1 shot attempt the odds are less good because of the consequences attached to messing it up. Statistics are all relative to other costs and factors.

    If they cite bad data to back up their explanation? Yes, I wouldn't listen to them, because listening to bad data is how we get stuff like anti-vaxxers. That's why we go to lengths to create good data to prove points.
     
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  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Vs. one generic Hacker
    67.50% Liú Xīng Jump Infantry Dodges Kappa Unit
    Vs. two generic Hackers
    61.25% Liú Xīng Jump Infantry Dodges Kappa Unit
    (Keep in mind that this is very, very, slightly faulty as in the case where the Liu Xing crits the roll, they will succeed landing regardless if the generic hacker crits or not)

    Explode vs the same generic hacker
    55.00% Kǎnrèn Counter-Insurgency Group inflicts 1 or more wounds on Custom Unit (Unconscious)
    Explode vs the same generic LI troop
    27.50% Kǎnrèn Counter-Insurgency Group inflicts 1 or more wounds on Custom Unit (Unconscious)
    (Chain-Colt has DAM 13, so I took a Kappa and bumped up ARM to 2 to compensate)

    Assumption: ONE generic hacker protecting the army, Liu Xing dropping on a Fireteam of generic LI
    0.6750 * 0.2750 = 18.56% chance
    Assumption: ONE of the troopers in the Fireteam is the Hacker, who gets kicked out
    0,6750 * 0,55 = 37.13% chance

    Keep in mind that if your opponent is smart, they will Engage with as many as possible
    50.00% Custom Unit Engages Kǎnrèn Counter-Insurgency Group

    Assumption: two generic LI made their Engage
    Active Player
    23.35% Liú Xīng Jump Infantry inflicts 1 or more wounds on Kappa Unit (Unconscious)
    Failures
    45.90% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    30.75% Kappa Unit inflicts 1 or more wounds on Liú Xīng Jump Infantry (0 W)
    3.95% Kappa Unit inflicts 2 or more wounds on Liú Xīng Jump Infantry (Dead)

    Bottom line is; explode Lx has tactically the best chance when used to punish single hackers. Anything else is probably going to expose the Liu Xing to far too much return firepower or dog-piling.

    Now, I find the whole argumentation surrounding whether a particular tournament is an indication of anything to be ridiculous; sample size is way too low and a very large number of metrics will not be tested for. Whether the players are "skilled enough" is irrelevant as is modifiers like Limited Insertion or Spec Ops, any modifiers to the tournament are part of the game. Good players will win in Limited Insertion just as non-LI or they're not good players because they can't adapt to changing conditions and if a faction is disadvantaged in any particular tournament modifier then that needs to be taken into account when evaluating the faction. As far as I am concerned, basically everyone is wrong and you've built trenches around a mole hill :p

    Please consider that being technically correct doesn't actually mean you get to be an arse, and that if you thought this was directed specifically at Triumph then you're probably being an arse.
     
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