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Helot Camo + Decoy

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Wyrmnax, Nov 5, 2019.

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  1. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

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    So, had a bit of a discussion recently.

    As far as I know ( and supported by the skills being separated by a / - wich usually indicates a "either", not a "or"), Helots can deploy EITHER in camo OR with the 3 decoys. Not deploy 3 camo markers.

    Is that udnerstanding of the rules correct? I had someone arguing the opposite, and I do not feel like the price of Helots really justify being able to have what effectively amounts to ambush camo lv2.
     
  2. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    / does indeed mean OR
     
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  3. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Yup.

    If the entry meant "you can place 3x camo markers", it would say "Camo, Decoy"
     
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  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Besides... NFB on those two skills...
     
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  5. Whyrocknodie

    Whyrocknodie Well-Known Member

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    I've always thought this, and so has everyone I remember playing. I can't show it to anyone however, because I cannot find it anywhere - does anyone know why the / means OR, is there somewhere where this is mentioned in the text, the wiki, a FAQ, etc?
     
  6. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    / means OR in the same way that + means AND, they're common logic symbols that had these meanings long before Infinity existed.
     
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  7. Whyrocknodie

    Whyrocknodie Well-Known Member

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    So there really isn't anything I can point at other than saying that's how I read it after all.

    A '/' is often used inclusively, so arguments will probably continue to arise. Not only that, but there's the slight problem of not necessarily being a fixed choice - for example, theoretical player A could decide that the Odalisque has a 360 visor for one ARO and sixth sense for another!
     
  8. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
    Warcor

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    Hijacking the thread and calling in @ijw to help out:
    Can I fire at a trooper in decoy state? I usually consider I can, there is no need to discover. However, I can't find it explicitly stated anywhere that I can do it.
     
  9. Whyrocknodie

    Whyrocknodie Well-Known Member

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    In the wiki rules for Decoy, one of the cancellation clauses for the replicas is it being shot.

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Decoy_(State)
    "It receives a successful hit that forces it to make an ARM/BTS Roll, or a Critical hit."
     
  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Look at it this way. BS Attack allows you to declare an attack on a Trooper. Decoy says you are to treat them as troopers (for a limited number of circumstances). Does it also say you aren't allowed to declare BS Attacks on them? Unless you can find something like that, then you can because BS Attack (etc) allows you to.
     
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  11. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Have you got an example? Off the top of my head I can't think of a situation where it's used inclusively.

    Note that I think it should be spelled out in the rules anyway.

    To expand on Mahtamori's point, where is the equivalent clause to Camouflaged state's "Enemies cannot declare Attacks against a trooper in the Camouflaged state without previously Discovering that trooper, or declaring Intuitive Attack."?
     
  12. Whyrocknodie

    Whyrocknodie Well-Known Member

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    I don't mean in the rules of the game, I mean someone might use it that way for any purpose - which means if I am using a logical argument about the exclusive OR, I may find it difficult.

    *Er, unless you mean an example of that kind of use at all. That could someone just using it incorrectly, or be something connected like:
    "I am going to be in the study/craft room for the rest of today."
    The study and the craft room are the same thing, it is a study AND a craft room - but you can also say it's a study OR a craft room.
     
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  13. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Yes, that's what I was asking for.
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    It can be either or, but as a general rule of thumb it's a bad idea to try and study and do crafts at the same time because hobby knives do cut through thumbs as a rule ;)
     
    #14 Mahtamori, Nov 6, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
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  15. chromedog

    chromedog Less than significant minion

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    Depends on what you are studying, and whose thumbs you are cutting into, I suppose ...
     
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  16. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    The / has never, EVER meant 'and' in Infinity.

    Don't know what to tell you, other than maybe smacking your opponent in the head with the rulebook a couple times...
     
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  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Or dictionary or programming for dummies.

    I think the tricky part is when the skills aren't simultaneous, such as for Tiger Soldier when one is a deployment skill and the other is an ongoing effect. That's when the Rulebook needs to step in and clarify in the basic nomenclature of the game system.
     
  18. KestrelM1

    KestrelM1 Well-Known Member

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    For you to do that, there would have to be an actual rule for "/" abilities.

    I mean sure, we can assume it means 'or.' But as Whyrocknodie mentioned, there's no rules that specify a timing for the choice. Is it at list creation, since they're effectively different profiles? Is it when placing the model on the board, as with other optional skills? Is it at the end of deployment, the way Booty and Metachemistry are? Or is it per order, the same way you can choose between your Rifle or Pistol when declaring an Order or ARO?

    Without a specific rule to cover "/" abilities, any of these are reasonable interpretations. Clarification is needed.
     
  19. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Well, we know from Tigers and Hellcats that it's at deployment in those cases.

    And Army shows the weapons choice as
    TAI SHENG Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 45)

    which is simply separating the ranged weapons from the 'CC' weapons, in the 'Export to Forum' command ONLY.

    Elsewhere it shows them as separate columns, including the 'Print Army List' command.
     
  20. KestrelM1

    KestrelM1 Well-Known Member

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    Could you show me where it says this in the rulebook or wiki?
     
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