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The definite N4 Comments, Suggestions, Ideas, wishlist's and Bugs that need fixing thread

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    Since when is the missile launcher a good weapon for TAG hunting just by itself ? It is a good deterrent weapon, but not really more. You need either burst (AP HMG ...), very good modifiers on powerful weapons (ODD/MSV2+smoke feuerbach ...), or indirect attacks (read: AHD). TAGs are supposed to be the ultimate active trooper (but they are not, thanks to some linked troops), you can't just expect to win versus them with just a 17 pts standard trooper because he's wielding a missile launcher.

    You want to shoot a jotums ?
    Azra'il (AP HMG): 46% vs 21%
    Teucer (MSV2 feuerbach) + smoke: 52% 1STR vs 13% 1W
    Linked fusilier (MSR, AP mode): 44% vs 21%
    Linked fusilier (ML): 49% vs 29%

    Appart from the Azra'il example where crits may be a bit significant, for the others, crits does not count that much in the result, because these are all low burst AP shots. And yes, even basic troops have some nice chances provided they stack some mods.
     
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  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Reset works just fine. Either it triggers on an enemy walking in your ZoC, or you don't get an ARO until after second short skill because they're in Hacking Area and you're not a Hacker, or you are a Hacker and get better options than Reset.
     
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  3. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    This is pretty much where I sit on the topic, have it be about picking the right tool for the right job. need to engage multiple enemies, or not sure if you will win the F2F in a straight fight? Use the High Burst program (Basilisk, Trinity), High BTS target, use the breaker program (Carbonite, Skullbuster), Then characters/ top end hackers get their upgrade that just improved an improved version of one of these options (Icebreaker, Lightning).
    Meaning before Upgrades you only have two options to choose between with pretty obvious applications for IMM-1 (or death in the case of SWORD).

    I don't ever want to see SWORD programs on AHDs, ever. I prefer when the devices have a clear purpose and by slapping a SWORD on a AHD it goes back to being the top and dominating device it was pre KHD. It's why I want the SHIELD programs fixed, to give them a non-lethal option.


    Oblivion doesn't stop them from shooting you, and frankly oblivion should probably only last X number of turns anyway given how powerful the ISO state is.
     
  4. Berjiz

    Berjiz Well-Known Member

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    I'm wondering if perhaps part of the problem with hacking is that it isn't common enough. It could potenially add a lot to the game if hacking was present in most lists. The question ofc is how to do it in a sensible way that makes sense, and not for instance make in mandatory by forcing it's use with button pushing. A good start I think is to make sure more targets are vunerable to hacking, even for Ariadna. Perhaps an overhaul for hacking for Ariadna and Tohaa is needed.
     
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  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    This usually works ok. The problem is Breakwater and similar programs.
     
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  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Breakwater, Counterstrike, etc doesn't have an "enemy active", they only have "targeted by attack", which is the problem.
     
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  7. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    isolate state is powerful...yes, but nothing near to the "dead" state, it even lets you deffend or go supressive fire if needed with your irregular order, there are even units inmune to it. Also, is not so dificult to take off (normal engineer, and no wound on failing to). Is similar to IMM2 (you don't loose the order, but you can't deffend or activate), but until now, IMM2 was not so common to see. IMM1 on the other hand... is not enough powerful, and too easy to remove.

    Reset can be used in aro too easy. You bring a repeater, hack and the you wanna flee? reset for free. you recamo your hacker? reset, and so. It it wasn't so easy, maybe IMM1 programs would be a bit more useful
     
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  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Reset isn't guaranteed, but I think that IMM-1's inherent weakness is fair simply because we're talking about a weapon type that is very cheap (costs way less than a combi), doesn't remove the unit's own weapon, and shoots at enemies from positions where they can't shoot back.

    Once you have an enemy HI (HI/REM/TAG/Hacker) in IMM-1 you can capitalize on it. There aare a number of ways to do this;
    The hacker themselves can do it, but you have to make sure you have the economy and position to do so,
    You can use another trooper to shoot the HI from range and LOF, preventing Reset indefinitely,
    A melee specialist can take the opportunity to Stealth into combat - or Stealth past for more useful targets,
    or failing all this just avoid the HI knowing you'll have screwed the HI's next turn (which is why I think Carbonite needs longer duration, not stronger immobilization).

    Keep in mind that a HI that attempts to Reset out of IMM-1 can be Hacked, drastically reducung the chance of getting out of the immobilization.

    @Armihaul isolation cancels Suppression Fire. Oblivion is strong due to the high DAM value and what I mentioned above regarding targeting. It's the most hard-skew you can get in Infinity and completely unnecessary.
     
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  9. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    Isolation don't cancel suppression fire, is the "status change" which does. If you are isolated you can go suppressive fire the same way a NWI could do it

    also, hacking is "cheap", but also remember that only works against a few type of troops. Beign strong against those is instended, but in reality, it is not strong enough, more a nuisance than a real problem for those units
     
  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I beg to differ. It's far too strong thanks to Oblivion.
     
  11. darthchapswag

    darthchapswag Shandian Strike Team

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    Now this might be slightly tangential, and I agree Oblivion/Isolation is too strong as it stands, but why is it not possible to use Oblivion on ALL units?

    Surely it's not just heavy infantry and TAGs that rely on their comms gear to listen to their lieutenants?

    I think it should be made a weaker program that can target all units in conjunction with isolated being a less severe state (maybe 2 turns).

    Thoughts?
     
  12. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    It it was a null state, the trooper could not deffend itself, or were applied any malus, that could be too strong. But as is now... they remain there,they can deffend, some troopers, when isolated, still do their job, if you isolate them near objective, they might do mission if you cannot deal with them, and there are some troopers that are inmune, a few ones that even when isolated, have 2 or 3 orders (enough sometimes to do their job), and the most of the miniatures of the game cannot be targetted by oblivion. From the cripling weapons, is on more the feble type
     
  13. darthchapswag

    darthchapswag Shandian Strike Team

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    I agree that in itself Isolated isn't too strong a state, however, in the context of Oblivion being the go to hacking option, and seeing the proliferation of cheap jammers, it has become a much easier state to apply to enemy units.

    All of this is said with the caveat and understanding that if you run heavy infantry lists (like I tend to) you should be planning countermeasures from isolation/immobilisation anyway.

    I just believe Isolation either needs a little rethink or the methods of delivering it need to be reassessed. Maybe that's just the heavy infantry devotee in me wishing though!

    Oh, also what are your thoughts on my original question, making Oblivion weaker but able to target all units?
     
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  14. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    My thoughts on that, I think that hacking should remain with limited targets, and oblivion is the one is "ok". Just the IMM1 could get a boost of some kind (maybe limiting the use of reset, some malus or so). Making oblivion a weak jammer, I'm not sure if that would be good for the game.Might become unuseful, might become too of a nusisance for the player (much more isolated troopers, which is frustrating). HI should have strong points against other kind of "fights", is just I think hacking should be their nemesis, and they should be afraid of it
     
  15. Callum

    Callum Member

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    Honestly hacking suffers mostly from the transition from RPG to tabletop game. In the RPG Im sure it was amazing for the plucky group of PCs to really mess with the armour and tech of the 'evil' YJ and Pano npcs. Unfortunately when those same heavy infantry or TAG belong to another player across the table suddenly the ability to really mess with their units with hacking isn't terribly fun or engage for them.

    Coupled with the non-lof nature the hacking programs have to limited to more minor effects to not be completely boring to play against. AS it stand I think hacking is functional as a large order sink to circumnavigate particularly if it is lurking under camouflage tokens. This allows it to be effective at stopping outright charges from heavy units with out making them entirely useless. Turning AHD into better jammers would round out this capacity nicely.

    Honestly to allow broader targeting of non hi for assault hacking devices I would very much like the introduction of a Isolated 1 and Isolated 2 split similar to that found on the immobilised state.
    Isolated 1 would be found on jammer and AHD which is consistent with the effects of jamming being correctable.
    Isolated 2 would be caused by E/M hits which is in keeping with electronics being fried by electromagneticism
     
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  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I agree with the theory of this, and how it would make for an interesting dynamic where heavy infantry were balanced with this in mind, but as it is implemented HI are paying full price for all of their abilities and stats, sometimes they're even paying a premium just because they are heavy infantry. They have, in short, been balanced in costs to an environment where specific HI counters don't exist and where counters to units are twice as hard to stick on a heavy infantry compared to a light or medium infantry. What we currently have is an environment where it's barely harder to stick (in case of adhesive literally stick) counters on heavy infantry over a light infantry and almost not at all harder than medium infantry.
    On top of this we have specific extra counters to heavy infantry; E/M vulnerability and hacking.

    Should Heavy Infantry come with a sufficient discount that you are increasingly able to afford the extra Engineers and orders you are expected to have to spend, we'd be talking. To put things in numbers, only for illustrative purposes, imagine if a heavy infantry with the same stats as a medium infantry where the only difference is the wound statistic had the same cost as that medium infantry. This would drop a Zuyong with combi down to about 21 to 23 points, but as extreme as that sounds it's about 5 points per HI. Or perhaps HI scaling stat costs started 3 points later, I don't know.
     
  17. darthchapswag

    darthchapswag Shandian Strike Team

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    Hackers as jammer-lite is a good idea as they inherently have weaknesses that jammers don't (still can't get my head around Blackout not being a FtF option vs jammers) from KHD etc.

    The ISO-1 and ISO-2 state idea is interesting, however, I am conscious of ADDING another state to the complexity of the game when many of the calls for N4 are to reduce it.
     
  18. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    the problems with the HI costs are that you cannot do it linear with 1W troopers and hope it works. The extra wound cannot be counted as X points, because it brings extra value to everything else, so it should be a multipler (As in some aspects is now). But balancing that is hard as f, because if we make them too cheap, MI and IL would suffer from it a lot and send them outside the game. Also, there is no a "HI problem", there are a lot of units with some problems, and there are HI with some problems too, but not all of them, so trying to fix all of those problems, because their troop type will bring new ones. Each HI troop has to be addressed by themselves.

    the same happens with hacking. Support programs are ok, sword programs are ok (some are very powerful, others not so much, they could take a look at them individually), oblivion is powerful and so, they could take a look at his dmg for example, and the like, the problem is the IMM1 and possessed states, which should be taken into account separatelly. One is too weak, and the other is very powerful but too easy to remove, so people is forced to "suicide jump" if they want to make it worth. Take out the suicide jump option, but also make it harder to remove and it could be worth, both its use and tools to save from possession, for example
     
  19. darthchapswag

    darthchapswag Shandian Strike Team

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    Ultimately it comes down to a design decision by CB. What and where do units types stand in relation to each other?

    Through the past few years of releases we've seen a shift: HI used to be notably more powerful than LI and MI but fewer options, expensive, and vulnerable to E/M and hacking.
    There has been an increase in options, rules, and units that have reduced this separation in stats (proliferation of cheap indirect E/M weapons, NWI+shock immune LI, high ARM LI & MI) so that HI no longer really feel significantly more powerful or durable (with obvious exceptions).

    Now I'm not saying HI should rule the game and be super powered. I just feel that addressing the design philosophy to make them thematically different and understanding what their strengths and weaknesses should be would help define the rules of hacking and infowar, etc.
     
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  20. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    No, for the same reason that Impetuous troops can't go into marker state.
     
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