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Idea how to change crits and mates

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by ChoTimberwolf, Feb 5, 2018.

  1. T. Rex Pushups

    T. Rex Pushups Well-Known Member

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    With a fatality 2 burst 4 spitfire the odds getting at least one crit are 34%

    Math:
    90% chance for each dice to get a non crit

    4 rolls = .9^4 = 65.61 chance of getting no crits.

    So 1 - 65.61 = 34.39% chance of a crit.
     
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  2. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    Weight of dice always has an advantage, Fatality or not.
     
  3. T. Rex Pushups

    T. Rex Pushups Well-Known Member

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    Burst 5 sans fatality only gets up to 22% crit chance I only mention it so people can easily compare.
     
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  4. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    If you want to play around with the numbers, my dice calc does support Fatality L1. You can either pick one of the units with the skill, or you can find a dropdown for it if you pick "custom unit". :-)
    http://inf-dice.ghostlords.com/n3/
     
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  5. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Just for the sake of discussion - how abnormal is the event you get roughly 20% of the time, and why single out special rules and not burst?
     
  6. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member

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    I'm not a fan of crits in their current implementation for a few reasons.

    1. They devalue ARM (and BTS to a lesser extent). If the cost of ARM reflected this, or if ARM values were increased to compensate for crits being common place (so as to negate the effect of non-crit shots) then this might be fine, but ARM is also an expensive stat that gets pricier the more of it you have.
    2. Crits devalue elite units, which is bad, because the game's action economy, price differences, and preferred method of mission objectives are also devaluing those units.
    3. Crits on attacks have much more of an effect than other kinds of crits, they reshape ongoing play more and do so on a type of test that is rolled more than any other.
    4. They encourage crit-fishing behaviour and weight of dice beyond what the basic game rules already do and I still don't feel high burst weapons are costed appropriately for this background interaction.
    5. In a game with such tightly grouped numbers for both weapon damage and armour, on a damage system that can already easily lead to upset wounds on normal ARM rolls, crits are a destabilizing mechanic attempting to model something (lucky shots) that the basic dicing system already does.
    Now, I will agree, a destabilizing mechanic like crits is needed to make the threat of an ARO worthwhile. What I don't agree with, is how attack crits differ from all other crits.

    Crits acting as a wildcard in FtF rolls is fine. This means that no matter the matchup (short of a BS12 model eating -12 in MOD) you will always risk losing to a reacting model. But once we get to the second portion of an attack crit (outright ignoring armour) we start running in to issues with the rest of the system.

    First, it disproportionately affects expensive and elite units that are already risky expenditures since they provide fewer orders in a game that tends to favour lists with a heavier order load (at specific breakpoints). Further, we know that CB are trying to shift the balance to make expensive troops more worthwhile (which is why we are getting so many rules updates to help out things like TAGs and low order lists). But I believe that until the devaluing of armour via the crit mechanic is quashed, we wont see much of a shift away from the more popular order-heavy lists we currently see for a great many mission types.

    I mean, as it stands right now, without any crit mechanic any unit can still harm any other unit so long as it wins the firefight. The current armour system and tight grouping of weapon damage values already allows for a rifle to pierce the armour of a TAG and if CB want to allow for the highest ARM in cover and lowest DMG to have a shot, then they can either implement a 1 always fails rule or simply tweak the ARM value down a point.

    But by cutting out the ARM roll, we make the whole system a lot more random and this alone can cause some pretty bad snowball effects with several crits compounding to ruin even the best laid plan. The only effective counter to unexpected crits is to cart along more orders so that you have as much redundancy as possible, and we are right back to the presence of armour ignoring, auto-wounding crits devaluing high-cost elite units in a game where they are already devalued merely by their own lack of action economy.

    I don't want to see a crit mechanic abolished, but in its current state crits do a lot of fairly unfavourable things to the system, things that CB have shown a vested interest in trying to fix since N3 dropped.

    The two best and simplest fixes in my mind? First, drop the auto-wound from crit resolution. Crits simply win the FtF roll as before as their base effect. Next, either implement an auto-fail on a 1 for ARM rolls and don't have crits modify the damage of an attack in any way, or have the attack deal +3 damage on a crit.

    Both of those don't devalue ARM/BTS to any great degree, they discourage crit-fishing on high-ARM units where a specialized round might do the trick better, and they make expensive and tough units worth more in a firefight to the point where sacrificing an order or three to pop one in your list might be worth the loss of redundancy.

    Crits as they exist now promote an order-heavy meta, they devalue elite troops, they represent something the system's ARM rolls already represent better (lucky hits on long odds), and they are also a very frustrating mechanic for a great many players in the community.

    But then, this discussion always feels a lot like the pre-N3 discussion of the camo state and its first-strike ability. You have people arguing tooth and nail that this is exactly what CB wanted, that it is perfectly designed as-is, and that camo troops are costed correctly (despite every list in existence spamming them as hard as they can). Basically, there are a bunch of folks operating from the "CB wrote it, must be fair and balanced" line of thought without really thinking that just because it was written and intended one way, doesn't mean it isn't actually performing the job CB intended it to do.

    Hell, I think the fall of the overpowered, out-of-synch normal rolls of 2nd Edition camo have probably gone a long way for me realizing just how egregious I find crits. Much of 2nd Edition's camo-heavy meta was likely due to it being the best method of surprise crit avoidance. With almost everything being a FtF roll now, we're left with a system that is much harder to predict and thus leads to a high degree of randomness, mostly to the detriment of expensive units.

    I get that many gamers dislike change, and a lot of reticence about altering the crit mechanic will come from that, but I do honestly think that the existing crit mechanic is definitely one of the game's largest problems, it's just one that managed to fly under the radar prior to N3 because camo used to let us ignore the game's FtF interactivity quite easily. Now that we're forced in to FtF situations more often, it comes up a lot more and thus becomes a larger factor in things.

    tl;dr - A crit mechanic needs to exist for cheerleaders to actually be useful as defensive pieces but by also making attacking crits autowound, it has far too much of an effect against expensive and elite models, to the point where the game that already favoured low to mid-cost specialists only prefers them more. If CB wants an easy fix for making TAGs and expensive HI useful, then instead of more complicated add-ons and changes (like TAG-line) then they may think about implementing a set of beta rules that alter the crit mechanics to see if that shifts things in the direction they appear to want to go.
     
  7. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    The reason TAGs are commonly less used is because of the ITS format favoring objectives over kill-stomp. Altering the crit mechanics wouldn't impact that, but the TAGLINE rules and TAG domination and such may potentially swing it back a little.
     
  8. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member

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    TAGs have been underused since long before Paradiso's action-economy intensive mission styles were in the game. They've always been over-priced and over-vulnerable within the game environment, and N3 didn't do much to help that. Their short time in the sun as darlings of early ITS was more due to speed and high base values (often they came with a good base WIP for button pressing). But this was also in an environment where most HI was still 4--2, so the game in general was much less mobile back in those days (and of course out-of-synch normal rolls were super common in combat at this time as well, so having a specialist that could possibly survive a first-strike barrage once and return fire was handy when it came attached to a fast chassis).

    I don't think the current play environment of N3 would yield similar results in TAGs favour if ITS went back to LT specialists. But then, I think the over-focus on button pressing and redundancy is its own issue with the game, but that's for another thread.

    Either way, ARM is one of the most expensive stats on the statline and crits disproportionately affect more expensive models than less expensive ones. If a random crit takes down a cheap specialist that you have another 3-4 of, no big deal. If you strip a wound off of a 60 point HI specialist with a crit, it is now in the danger zone and risking further action with it is going to be a big problem if the dice aren't with it. TAGs are much the same, but get to defer the risk for a single extra wound.

    The current system doubles down on the importance of burst by having it directly augment deadliness no matter the target. Why use specialized weapons when a 4-5 burst weapon fishing for crits is effective regardless of armour and often for a fairly low cost.

    Altering the crit mechanic to punish expensive and elite units less by devaluing one of the stats they pay out the nose for will almost definitely swing things a little back in their favour without making them the de facto best playing pieces in the game. You know, balance. Right now, elite units are unpopular because they provide less orders without really being much tougher than the 2-3 units they are replacing in the list. Much of this is simply down to defensive stats getting ignored by crits. It isn't the only thing working against them of course (action economy is also an issue) but it's a good start, at least a good place for CB to apply some further beta testing.
     
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  9. Wolf

    Wolf https://youtube.com/@StudioWatchwolf

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    I'm not sure I agree with your arguments Durandal, but I wanted to say I appreciate the forethought, time and effort you've obviously put into a well-written post (and 'Like' doesn't seem like a suitably fine-grained response). :smile:

    If someone can actually express themselves beyond "That's the way it's PLAYED you moron!" (which tragically inarticulate emails fill my mailbox to the brim) then we've a chance to express ourselves in turn, and maybe reach some kind of agreement about how to play.

    So full marks from me for saying something I don't really agree with, but saying it well enough that I can understand you, and respect the ideas and how much you've thought about them. More of that from the rest of you, please. :smile:
     
    #149 Wolf, Feb 23, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2018
  10. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member

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    Heh, no worries, like anything I do for a long time (been playing Infinity since its release, before technically, since the quickstart rules dropped prior to main release) I tend to eventually start picking at a lot of nits just out of sheer familiarity with all the nooks and crannies (I mean, as much as I've written about this, you can check the old forums for my various treatise on the flaws of the Zhanshi to really make your eyes water at a wall 'o text!). Camo was my old bugbear back in 2nd Edition and I think CB fixed that nicely (along with most of the other out-of-sync first-strike normal rolls that led to unsatisfying gotcha matches). But now that we're all face to face with the, err, Face-to-Face system on almost every roll, I think the role of crits has expanded beyond what we used to get in the average game and has thrown their powerful nature in to much more stark contrast.

    In either case, it's always nice to have a friendly discussion about the state of the game we all love. :grinning:
     
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  11. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

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    Believe me, TAGs HI and elite units are no more the redheaded step children of the game, anyone dismissing them or thinking they still have structural flaws that make them useless relative to midcost spam needs more experience.
     
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  12. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    If you are not the one dictating a situation Infinity does not reward defensive stats relative to a troops cost very much. ARM 4 and a second Wound isn't all that great against someone who is in his preferred Rangeband while your HI or TAG isn't.
    ARM 8 and 3 STR can't bail you out if Shinobu is in CC with your TAG.
    Aside from dedicated counters even against normal guns a HI is far from four to six times as hard to get rid of than a linetrooper in a regular 4 vs 1 dice Reactive Turn situation. In fact a lot of things tend to overkill against the Linetrooper and have a good chance to also kill a HI in a single Order.

    However this is only how it works in the Reactive Turn as well as in situations where your opponent is engaging on his terms. Things change drastically in your own Active Turn. More ARM/BTS and Wounds as well as higher Ballistic Skil on average means a HI or TAG is a lot less likely to be stopped by an ARO and make further use of your Order investment. Single Crits or hits, Mines or Koalas are a binary threat to a 1W model whereas a HI or TAG is only threatened in a already damaged state or by special Ammunition. If you want to spend 10 Orders on a Rambo piece and want it to succeed getting to where you want it, a HI/TAG does is significantly more reliable (although with it's own set of weaknesses attached).

    Going back to the topics of Crits I do favour HI and TAGs to get things done because Crits are a thing. I am well aware of the unmatched Order efficiency of Warbands and the cost/damage output ratio of things like Bulleteers, but they tend to be the backup pieces in my lists. Multiwound models and in extention HI and TAGs imho allow the maximum amount of control over your own turns - as long as you are able to properly execute your strategy.
    Using more Orders with less expensive troops ultimately leads to similar results through quantity, so it is mostly a matter of preference and the Faction you are playing.

    With two layers of security, Mates and Symbioarmour, Tohaa cheat the system. They're keeping the distinct advantages of HI and TAGs without the downsides of being vulnerable to EM and Hacking while also not being forced to pay for the extra ARM that generally accompanies an increased amount of Wounds. So far this can still be justified as a Faction's unique trait.
    What remains is Mates working exceptionally well in the Reactive Turn as their most problematic flaw.
     
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  13. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    E/M ammunition isolates them, Symbiont Armour troopers are not invulnerable to E/M.
     
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  14. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Defensive stats let you survive, and force the enemy to put more orders into killing you. If I have a Mobile Brigada on suppression fire, yes within 16" I'm probably hoping that I win any firefights that come my way against many targets. But if something slips through the net, then with ARM 4 I'm more likely to survive it, and with 2 W I can keep on going even if I fail. If something leaps from TO Camo, say a Sniper, and I am forced to Dodge, then a PH of 14 means after surprise I'm on 11 vs, say, 12s. I'm unlikely to win, but more likely to get hit once, and with ARM 4 more likely to fail just one save from that DA round, and with 2 W can drop into total cover and I've still got a capable active turn shooter and an order on the go.

    Defensive stats stat up, and don't require you to spend orders on them for them to be useful. They are always there and they usually help. They help incrementally, and less than offensive stats, because the game is based around you being able to do stuff and get a certain amount of efficiency out of spending orders to shoot the enemy, but the purpose of higher ARM and more W is not to be indestructible, it's to absorb enemy orders and slow their momentum. When you get caught a Mine, then PH, ARM and W will keep you alive, BS, mimetism, MSV etc is all worth fuck all. And Mines are deadly.
     
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  15. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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  16. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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  17. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Erm... LI, MI, etc also get Isolated by E/M. The IMM-2 part after getting hit by E/M is the specific weakness regarding HI and TAGs. Also there is the "shedding your Symbiont Armour to get rid of IMM/Isolated" thing as mentioned above.

    If we're talking about a pseudo HI that is completely immune to E/M there also is one of those - the Sukeul. Who just so happens to be the core piece of nearly every Tohaa list.
    Honestly I seem to not get what you wanted to point out there. :no_mouth:
     
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  18. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    You said that Symbiont Armour wasn't vulnerable to E/M. I pointed that it is.
     
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  19. Cothel

    Cothel Well-Known Member

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    I want to know why my Tohaa are not impervious to everything? My fault for reading the rules I guess... :persevere:
     
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  20. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Context - I said HI and TAGs have the (additional) downsides of being vulnerable to EM and Hacking, something Symbioarmour doesn't share.
    Here is the whole sentence at your leisure again:

    The damn sentence doesn't even make sense chopped apart, so what's your beef buddy?

    Please leave me out of anything remotely representing another "Tohaa players are the victims here"/"Tohaa need new releases"/"Tohaa are undersupported by CB"/"Tohaa aren't even a proper Faction and this hurts my feelings" debate.
    There are better threads for that sort of thing and I partially agree with some of those assessments.

    I'm not gonna keep you from playing the... "victim" - for the lack of a better word. But I will say the constant "muh Tohaa are treated unfair" in every second random thread starts to get a bit tedious.
     
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