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[SOLVED] Cadmus and open information

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Rift, Oct 16, 2019.

  1. Rift

    Rift Member

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    Another quick question

    When my Cadmus AD Jumps and land with its 2 decoys must I disclose which Developed Cadmus profile the Cadmus seed contain...or will that only be revealed once the seed is hatched?

    (say its a cadmus hacker that drops in)

    thanks in advance
     
  2. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    You deploy three seed embryo markers of which only one is real: http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/Seed-Embryo
    So the enemy knows, until hatch, that it's a Cadmus-Seed with Chest Mines, AD Combat Jump, Shasvastii wtih Decoy and Seed Embryo.

    Fun part: the seed embryo carries no hacking device, so it's the only AD trooper able to combo Surprise Shot with hacking attack despite not being a legal target for hacking programs other than Hack Aerotransport until it hatches XD
     
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  3. Rift

    Rift Member

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    Ok thanks, but let me expand on that a bit…


    When exactly would I reveal what kind of Cadmus it is? When I declare auto hatch….or when I declare the second short order?



    Lets say, my Cadmus dropped behind an enemy hacker but inside his ZOC…..can the hacker ARO with a hacking attack while its still in seed form?


    Now if I declare….auto hatch. What aro options does that enemy hacker have at this point? If at this point it is revealed to be a hacker cadmus then hack attack as aro makes sense….but if he doesn’t know it at this moment then I guess he can only really change face.





    Let say he changes face, and I decide to hack attack him, would that be a FtF or a normal roll?
     
  4. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    As soon as you replace the marker with a model.

    Yes, with Hack Aerotransport (and if he doesn't, he's renouncing AROs).

    If you mean an enemy hacker with no access to said program, as I mentioned before the Seed Embryo carries no hacking device whatsoever, regardless of the profile chosen.

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/index.php?title=Seed-Embryo&redirect=no#AUTOHATCH
    reads (among other things): Autohatch allows cancellation of the Seed-Embryo state with no Roll required.

    So no, you cannot negate the ARO to the enemy, and yes, he knows of you carry or not a hacking device.
    Also, Autohatch is a short movement skill, and the Cadmus has stealth, so by default you would not generate ARO against enemies with no LoF when declaring Autohatch.

    So you declare Autohatch and you are no longer in Seed Embryo state.


    No, neither dodge nor its derivates like change facing interact with a hacking attack with a FtF roll, both would be normal rolls.
     
  5. Rift

    Rift Member

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    Great thank you
     
  6. Rift

    Rift Member

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    Follow up question

    If the seed embryo gets isolated.... Will the developed form also be isolated when it hatches?
     
  7. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Yes, it is still the same trooper. Much like an isolated Dog Warrior or Biker remains isolated if they change profile.
     
  8. Rift

    Rift Member

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    Makes sense

    Thank you
     
  9. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Strongly disagree - there is nothing making the chosen load out of the Cadmus or Seed-Soldier private. Seed-Embry is not on the list of things that hide information, so you must immediately tell your opponent their full load out, including what weapons and skills they will have once hatched.

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Open_and_Private_Information

    These pieces of information are Private in Infinity:

    Private Information about a trooper becomes Open Information when that trooper falls Dead and is removed from play as a casualty.
     
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  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Adding my agreement to @toadchild and also noting that Decoy doesn't protect the identity, either, because Decoy isn't the same as Holo2 and can't use Holo1 in order to make-pretend to be something it is not.
     
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  11. Rift

    Rift Member

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    So to confirm then,

    you drop your seed-embryos in, both the real one and the two decoys, and then disclose to your opponent that it contains whatever developed profile.

    But in the case of the hacker, the seed embryo profile does not have the hack-able trait and thus cant be hacked until it hatches. (hack aircraft sure but not the embryos themselves)

    If the seed-embryo declares auto hatch outside of LoF but inside ZoC of a enemy hacker, it will not trigger an ARO as it has stealth, however if the second part is a non-movement short skill it will trigger an ARO.

    If i decide that the second part of the order is a attack hack, it will benefit from surprise shot and inflict a -3 mod on the target plus whatever mods the program has.

    Have I got all of this covered correctly?



    Thanks for the help.
     
    #11 Rift, Oct 17, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019
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  12. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Irrelevant, what you place on the table is the Cadmus Seed marker, not the developed form. So you inform your opponent that is a cadmus-seed. Once the seed hatches, then you apply the Cadmus profile AND gear, because the gear is associated to the Cadmus-Soldier form, not the Cadmus-Seed.

    Also, in http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/Seed-Embryo_(State) states:
    This points to the Chest Mines (which are not kept once the Cadmus hatches), creating a clear difference between what gear the Cadmus-Seed carries and what gear the Cadmus-Soldier carries.
     
  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Just because it is a marker doesn't mean it allows you to hide Open Information.

    See for example Holoecho 2, where if you only use markers (i.e. you do not use Holo1 as well), the Trooper's information remains open. Similarly, the abilities of a TAG pilot isn't private information and is printed on the courtesy list for that reason.
     
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  14. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    First, a TAG pilot can be on the table at the same time the TAG is. A Cadmus-Soldier canNOT be on the table at the same time his Cadmus-Seed marker is on the table. Cadmus won't show on the courtesy list, however, due to being AD troopers.

    Second, what does not seem to translate between you and me is that I'm not talking about "it is a marker, so it hides information" at all. What I am saying is that what gets deployed on the table is a Cadmus-Seed, of which all its information is open. That information is, besides it statline. Gear: Chest Mines; Skills: Shasvastii, AD Combat Jump, Seed-Embryo, Decoy.

    Now, as I mentioned in my previous post, "If the Seed-Embryo Troop Profile has a weapon, the trooper can use it with no need to declare Hatch nor to change to the Developed Form." making a clear divide between what the Cadmus-Seed carries and what the Cadmus-soldier carries.

    So what I'm saying is that you share the information of what is on the table: the Seed Embryo of the Cadmus, defined as "Cadmus-Seed", what you don't share is the information of the Cadmus-Soldier that is not on the table and it's clearly differenciated from the seed.
     
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  15. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    While I initially agreed with this, looking at the Seed-Embryo rule again, the yellow box strongly infers otherwise:

    REMEMBER
    When you replace one of your Markers with a model, you are required to share all Open Information relative to that trooper.

    Holo2/Holoecho state is explicitly a marker state that makes the trooper under the marker Private Information:

    REMEMBER
    The presence of troopers in active Holoecho state is considered Private Information. This includes their Special Skills, weapons and Equipment. However, in Holoecho state the Hackable Characteristic is considered Open Information when the trooper is inside the Hacking Area of an enemy.

    It has to be, because the opponent doesn't know about the presence of Holo2, and even once they do, they don't know if Holo1 is being used or not.
     
  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    This is not an attack on you personally, it's really targeted at the rules, but could this be any less dumb, PLEASE. The rules really need to write what the rules want in what is the rules. Can't just stick a yellow post-it somewhere in close proximity going "oh, btw, probably this thing"
    That's fair enough and makes sense. I only quickly looked up the state, because that's where the rules are usually written for a state, and it says nothing about private information in the state page
     
  17. Rift

    Rift Member

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    Uhm I'm confused....

    Is the developed form disclosed or not when the seed lands?
     
  18. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    I agree.

    Yeah, it's now been copied to the state page.

    I recommend playing that the opponent only knows about the Seed-Embryo profile, but at this point there are also issues with how Army displays any trooper with the Seed-Embryo rule.
     
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  19. Rift

    Rift Member

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    ok great, thank you
     
  20. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I’m not convinced by this, as there is no general rule that says any marker automatically hides information, nor is there a specific rule that says Seed-Embryo does. I’m going to continue to tell my opponents full information about my Cadmuses or revealed Seed-Soldiers until there’s an official errata otherwise.
     
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