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Coordinated Cadmus Combat Jump Decoys

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by pseudonymmster, Oct 4, 2019.

  1. pseudonymmster

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    If I spend a Coordinated Order to simultaneously Combat Jump in 2 Cadmus (which have Decoy), do the Decoys of the successfully landed Cadmus have to stay in the Drop Zone?

    Note: Drop Zone is required for Combat Jump, and I'm pretty sure Decoys follow the same restrictions of deployment as the model.

    So I think that, if the Cadmus successfully drops in, the Decoys will have to stay in the Drop Zone. But if they disperse (to a valid location), they'll be free to spread out as much as the Decoy skill lets them. Possibly barring the enemy deployment zone (since that's not a valid place to disperse to?)
     
    #1 pseudonymmster, Oct 4, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2019
  2. pseudonymmster

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    So let's have a concrete example:

    I have 4 Cadmus (A, B, C, and D) who I want to Coordinate Order Combat Jump in. Here's what I think the order of operations is and what restrictions there are:

    1. Place Drop Zone.
    2. Place the 4 Cadmus models.
    3. Roll Combat Jump for each of them. (Let's say Cadmus A and Cadmus B succeeded at their rolls, but Cadmus C and Cadmus D failed.)
    4. Roll Dispersion for each. (Let's say Cadmus C landed in a valid spot, but Cadmus D landed off the board or some such.)
    5. Place invalid models on a board edge in your deployment zone.
      (So now A and B are successfully in the Drop Zone, C dispersed elsewhere on the board, and D is on a board edge in my deployment zone.)
    6. Place Decoys with the same deployment restrictions as the models, as well as the deployment rules for Decoy. So, while maintaining Coherency:
      1. The decoys for A and B have to be in the Drop Zone.
      2. The decoys for C can be anywhere on the board except the opponent's deployment zone (since you can't disperse there? not sure on that).
      3. The decoys for D have to be on the board edge in my deployment zone.
    7. AROs happen
     
  3. pseudonymmster

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    #3 pseudonymmster, Oct 4, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2019
    theradrussian likes this.
  4. DustGod

    DustGod Well-Known Member

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    Following
     
  5. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    That is almost how I would play it, just that the decoys for C need to be within a Drop Zone of C (instead of anywhere on the table).
     
  6. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    Putting "So, while maintaining Coherency" in the front there is really understating it. And your outline is misleading concerning who's getting placed.

    It should be:
    1. Place the drop zone.
    2. Place 4 initial decoys, "parent decoys", one for each Cadmus. The first four decoys may or may not be the real troops, independently chosen for each of the Cadmus. These all get placed in the same Drop Zone.
    3. Roll dispersion for each, and figure out where each one ends up due to dispersion.
    4. For each of those four initial decoys, place their corresponding other two decoys.
      1. If a "parent decoy" didn't miss, there's no requirement that the other decoys are in the Drop Zone. All three of the decoys have to be in coherency, which just means that you get X-X-X with an 8" distance between X's in any direction.
      2. If the "parent decoy" is stuck on a board edge, the other two decoys are also stuck on board edges. And they have to be in coherency along the board edge.
      3. If the "parent decoy" is stuck on the deployment zone board edge, those decoys are also stuck on the board edge, in coherency.
    "following the Deployment general conditions" is various factors like exclusion zones, not being able to place them in the enemy deployment zone, and so on.

    A single Cadmus combat jumping onto the table and rolling a critical success doesn't need to place all three of its decoys in the Drop Zone; and the same goes for coordinated Cadmas. Likewise, if a Cadmus combat jumps, misses, but the "parent decoy" lands in a valid spot, the other two decoys just get placed in coherency. There's no shifted drop zone.
     
  7. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Good point.

    Really need to stay away from the Rules forum before my caffeine kicks in... :cold_sweat:
     
  8. pseudonymmster

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    That's because I'm not focusing on the coherency part at all.

    What's your justification for the "child" decoys needing to be placed on a board edge if the "parent" decoy is? And why wouldn't that apply to a drop zone? Seems like you're just picking and choosing scenarios to restrict the "child" decoys.
     
  9. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    If it helps, the original example for Decoy and AD was written with a Drop Zone, and only one of the Decoys being placed inside it.
     
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  10. pseudonymmster

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    @ijw So (if I understand properly), you're saying the Decoys are not restricted by the Drop Zone. Are they restricted to board edge & deployment zone if they disperse off the table?
     
  11. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I would say yes, but I don't have a rules reference for it.

    @Arkhos94 , can we get this added to the Unresolved Questions thread?
     
  12. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    @Section9 : I didn't follow this topic so I had some reading to do. Does this description is OK for everyone ? I tried to include every possibility

    Coordinated AD and Decoy


    Original topic : https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/coordinated-cadmus-combat-jump-decoys.35382/

    Situation : Four cadmus are performing a coordinated order AD Combat Jump. Cadmus A, B, C and D are all placed in the same drop zone

    Cadmus A and B pass their roll, Cadmus C fails is roll but stays on the table, Cadmus D fails is roll and his deviation take him out of the table. How each of them are deployed ?

    Answer Cadmus A/B (pass their roll) :
    Cadmus A and B don't move from their initial location.
    Answer AB1 : The two decoy markers of each Cadmus are placed in the original drop zone
    Answer AB2 : The two decoy markers of each Cadmus can be placed anywhere as long as they are in "coherency"

    Cadmus C (fails but stays on the table):
    Cadmus C is placed where he deviate.
    Answer C1 : His decoy markers are placed in a circular template centered on Cadmus C
    Answer C2 : His decoy markers can be placed anywhere as long as they are in "coherency"

    Cadmus D (fails and deviate out of the table):
    Cadmus D anywhere within the limits of its owner's Deployment Zone in contact with one of the borders of the game table.
    Answer D1 : His decoy markers are placed in a coherency with him, anywhere within the limits of its owner's Deployment Zone in contact with one of the borders of the game table.
    Answer D2 : His decoy markers can be placed anywhere as long as they are in "coherency"
     
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  13. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Close, but the Cadmus aren't placed in their drop/dispersal sites, only a 'Parent marker' is and the other two Decoy markers are placed later.
     
  14. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    No, they are not restricted by the circular template. Yes, if forced to deploy in your DZ, the deployment conditions are that you deploy in the DZ and touching the table edge.

    No, because it's not unanswered.
     
  15. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Does everyone/most people agree ? I have no dog in this fight so I will follow the majority on this
     
  16. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    It never seemed unclear to me, I would have played it as IJW said before he said it.
     
  17. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Need a book cite for this:


    [expletives deleted] rules lawyers need to either have it in writing in the rules or get beaten to death by the rulebook.
     
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