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Prone on a roof vs TAG, cover ?

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Arkhos94, Oct 5, 2019.

  1. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    my opponent trooper is prone on a building (roughly S6 height) without border

    My S7 TAG is shooting the troope from the ground, does the enemy get cover ?

    A) no, my tag LOF is starting from the top of my TAG silhouette, which is higher than the enemy base, so my TAG is higher than the enemy

    B) yes, my TAG base is lower than the enemy base so he is lower

    The referre and me are saying option A), my opponent says option B

    Which one is true ?
     
  2. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    A. You can draw LOF from any point of your silhouette
     
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  3. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Agreed, A.
     
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  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    What Zewrath wrote because the rules say "[...]target of a BS Attack declared by an enemy from a lower position than them will benefit from Partial Cover MODs[...]" so it doesn't consider the relative positions so much as the origin of the attack, so as long as you select the point from where you shoot with the TAG, you'll deny partial cover.
     
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  5. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    • Prone troopers that are the target of a BS Attack declared by an enemy from a lower position than them will benefit from Partial Cover MODs against that attack.
    It's not a "lower position" when you can look down from above the enemy trooper. :)

    1. In games like Malifaux, where line of sight is drawn from the model's base and all of the metal and plastic attached to the base are just nice decorative elements, option B would be a reasonable argument.
    2. In Infinity, models have volumes, and line of sight is drawn from anywhere in the volume.
    And, for ultimate rules lawyer bonus combo:

    Since you choose the line of sight for attacks in Infinity, you actually get to choose which position the attack comes from. And the Prone rule specifies "a BS Attack declared by an enemy from a lower position". If you parse that as both clauses
    "from a lower position" and "by an enemy model" as modifiers to "a BS Attack declared" then the attacker's chosen line of fire determines whether cover is granted.

    In other words...
    Your S7 TAG is facing a model prone on the edge of the rooftop. You can choose:
    • Shoot from below the target, to angle the shot upward (which would matter for impact teardrop templates). Cover. (The cover penalty to hit still applies to impact templates, even though the target won't get the ARM/BTS modifier.)
    • Shoot from above the target, to angle the shot downward (which would matter for impact teardrop templates). No cover.
     
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  6. Sangarn

    Sangarn TRIUMcorp CEO
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    i'm the opponent and we don't call the referee, I've just mention this after the game, i try to never talk about rules during a game
    (also it was not a game changing thing)

    quoted line:
    Prone troopers that are the target of a BS Attack declared by an enemy from a lower position than them will benefit from Partial Cover MODs against that attack.

    that bad writing like the rest, I've read that it was the mini and not the line of fire we have to take into consideration, (I can't find it here maybe it was elsewhere) and it make sense to me because:
    A:
    it says 1: "a BS Attack" (so any BS attack, from anywhere) 2: "declared by an enemy from a lower position"
    the enemy is from a lower position, and you are prone: you have cover
    B:
    Line of sight is used to check if you can attack and if there is cover/partial cover if the the line of sight see more than 2/3 of the silhouette
    in this case there is no 2/3 of S0 having to be seen, the rule explain the situation where you can be in cover
    C:
    being S0 while prone if you get shot most of the time the line of "shooting" is above you so it make sense to rule that you still have cover


    it should have said: the attack form the model is at a lower position, and don't talk me about logic, an unconscious trooper keep cover and lose mimetism
     
  7. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    I asked him (and another warcor) and others peoples at a later time on the evening. I simplified it before posting, sorry

    If we take your understanding and push it at its limit :
    TAG is shooting Fusilier
    TAG is on the road
    Fusilier is prone on the roof of a 1cm heigh box

    Illustration :
    [​IMG]

    The fusilier is located on a higher ground than the cutter
    The fusilier is prone
    The cutter LoF can start at any point of his silhouette. Using his head as starting point, LoF start roughly 3/4 cm higher than the fusilier

    With your understanding, the fusilier get cover.
    With the way it was explained above, it doesn't
     
    #7 Arkhos94, Oct 7, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2019
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  8. Sangarn

    Sangarn TRIUMcorp CEO
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    all your explanation are fine by me but again RAW =/= logic, all I read is RAI stuff

    also: when firing someone prone above you he will be always at cover because you will never see the whole silhouette: so why this sentence even exist then ?

    quoted line:
    Prone troopers that are the target of a BS Attack declared by an enemy from a lower position than them will benefit from Partial Cover MODs against that attack.
    [​IMG]
    except to fast up the checking line of fire part of the game ? A lot more clear to check if a trooper is above or below another
     
  9. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    In practical terms, it's so that you don't have to try and check if 1/3 of the Silhouette is obscured when the angles are very awkward, and to make it slightly easier to claim cover on a roof.

    If you want to claim cover from being Prone and higher up, you will need to be higher up than the firer's Silhouette. Not higher than their base, but the whole Silhouette.
     
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  10. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Now make another picture where the top of the shooter's Silhouette is above the prone target, but the bottom of the shooter's Silhouette is below the target.

    That is the situation we are talking about.
     
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  11. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    This is not the situation we faced during our game nor the one we are discussing here.

    This is the situation :
    Cover.png
     
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  12. Sangarn

    Sangarn TRIUMcorp CEO
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    that's what should have been written in the rule

    When do Corvus Belli hire you to re-write the rules ? ^^
     
  13. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    This is what is written in the rules. There are no need for rewriting.

    As shown in the picture two post above, I’m shooting from a higher position than the prone trooper (as shown by the blue line). Per RAW that means no cover for the defensive trooper
     
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  14. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    That is what’s in the rule. This may be a second language issue.
     
  15. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly.

    Speaking personally, I'd probably draw LOF down low for an HFT, which ignores the cover anyways, and up high for a MultiHMG to deny cover.
     
  16. Sangarn

    Sangarn TRIUMcorp CEO
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    I will not answer the "second language issue" ...

    But What I'm saying is in this quoted line:
    Prone troopers that are the target of a BS Attack declared by an enemy from a lower position than them will benefit from Partial Cover MODs against that attack.

    we need to put somewhere "When drawing LoF"

    so something like this:
    When declaring a BS attack and drawing LoF from below to above at a prone trooper, Partial Cover MODs are applied against that attack.
    (so it's probably bad because of the "second language issue" but you get the idea)

    in the partial cover text:
    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Cover
    "When drawing LoF, the attacker must be able to see at least a part of his target the size of its head[...])."

    We are speaking about "BS attack LoF" not "enemy" (btw enemy is wrong here because this rule also apply for a medikit from an allied trooper ^^)

    "from below to above" is clearer than "from a lower position" imo it is less subject to interpretation
    ... unless all this is just a "second language issue" xD
     
  17. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    I find the way you've phrased this very confusing personally.

    Note: I'm not against a revision/clarification of the rule if it helps to make things more clear. Just personally I would struggle with trying to decipher the sentence as written.
     
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  18. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    If anything, this would be helped most with a diagram in the rules... not a rewording of the skill.
     
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  19. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely!

    putting @Arkhos94 picture into the section on LOF would fix everything.
     
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