I don't think that's true, or to the extent that it's true, it's not meaningful. "Veteran" has existed since first edition, but it was jsut the Vet Kazak's NWI and Sixth Sense combo skill. That still exists today as Veteran L2. Jammers were introduced with Campaign Paradiso (2nd edition). The Isolated state did not exist at that time, but it had a similar effect in that it made the model become Irregular. There was no special skill that allowed you to ignore this effect, aside from already being irregular.
Mechanic to mechanic yes, since the jammer is rendered useless against the Veteran. Infinity on the macro-scale is all about soft counters, but there are some mechanics that are hard countered by other mechanics (which is fine, no one would say that is a bad thing). For an example of a mechanic to mechanic counter that isn't hard counter, consider MSV1/2 and Camo. MSV doesn't allow you to shoot marker state units, doesn't cancel surprise mods (until MSV3), and you still have to discover units to remove them from marker state. It does make marker state weaker, but does so without completely eliminating it.
Agreed. I would add that AHD has several layers of counter - for example EVO and tinbots can reduce AHD efficiency, KHD can threaten and kill them, non hackable can just go and kill them (or ignore them), stealth troops can try to go around their ZoC ... Meaning that you don't have to bring a specific counter, you can try to use what tool you have at hand.
I mean, AHDs are niche counters by themselves. It's no surprise they don't work well against pretty much everything else.
Being very reductive, a Jammer is just an AHD that has targeting restrictions removed in exchange for not being able to use Repeaters and only being able to use its most potent program. Or, other way around, an AHD is just a Jammer with a huge amount of Veterans. But really, a Jammer is as hard counter as a Hacking Device is, because the ttargets of a Hacking Device can't fight back, either, unless you position poorly. That's being reductive, but I think it does provide a more fair starting point to a discussion than simply blanket stating it is "fine" or "must be removed". If we are fine with AHDs, but not Jammers, then maybe that's because Jammers can target too many enemy types (what if it couldn't target ruggedized enemies, i.e. HI and TAGs were immune as if Veterans?) or that it doesn't have enough interaction with other equipment (what if it made the unit a valid target for Sword programs?) or simply put that it should cost the same as AHDs (i.e. all Jammer profiles cost +4/+0.5?)
I actually like the idea of more expensive jammers. It would make units like Ghazi and the Heckler a bit less of a no brainer. I mean, realisticall, if a Ghazi costed 9 points and 0,5 SWC people would still take 1-3 of them, but wouldn't just max AVA as an afterthought.
I also think this is an excellent argument that the AHD should be able to target “non-hackable” models with at least some of its programs.
"non hackable" needs to be a malus rather than a buff for the ateks. The EVO hacking program that busts links is a fine example, but that was done once and seemingly promptly forgotten.
Being low-tech should carry some disadvantage instead of just being a pure advantage. As to EXILE, the concept of that program is great but the current version of it (Iso the target and break the entire team), if it were proliferated out to more devices and factions would make people that rely heavily on fireteams to play the game endlessly complain about it, and the last thing the forums need is another salt mine. Now a powered down version of it (mostly for balance reasons and so that CA keep the more powerful version), where it just kicked the target from the fireteam without isolating them or breaking the entire team would probably be way the approach it.
I would rather hackable come with some sizeable bonuses, such as additional supportware that HI/TAGs can benefit from, or a reasonable discount to offset the weakness than non-hackable be made into something with penalties. The fact that hackable doesn't come with any benefits in the first place probably isn't good design, at least non-hackable is only given to 1W units.
Non hackable (also no cube?) could mean limited to 5 orders instead of 10 (the group can still have order pool of 10, but those units can not use all them, others will have to, or waste them). As a way to depict worse integration with the comms, without going completly isolated.
It seems when HI/TAGs were designed, they were deemed individually powerful enough to warrant a tailored counter, hence hackable made an appearance. Or maybe it was done on purely fluffy basis. Either way, now that their sturdiness is something that matters mostly in their own active turn and doesn't do too much in their reactive, having extra weaknesses on top of their costs (and often blandness) doesn't look like something that is needed unless we're talking about something actually very well optimized. I dunno, maybe something like Boracs, Grrls and linked Hollows (and old MO paintrain, RIP) are close enough? Creating extra supportware that is useful for more than just partially protecting them from consequences of being hackable in the first place is a decent way to address that while keeping game's complexity. Spoiler: Some stupid fluff rambling As a side effect, this is something that will make me shut up a little bit about how little sense being hackable makes in terms of the fluff. If your suit's servos are made to accept external commands to improve your performance based on data from tactical grid, it at least can explain why the hell they accept any external signals at all since it creates so many vulnerabilities. It still wouldn't explain why these adaptation protocols are not internalized, working with incoming tactical data locally, but at least it's something. Edit: or, I dunno, just make sure more HIs and TAGs are worth their points despite specific counters, because such examples are already there.
Well, anything that Isolates a trooper would be capable of breaking a fireteam, if you Isolate the Team Leader. Yeah, we had a good list of HI supportware going for a bit. The challenge is making the supportware good enough to make Zuyongs worth taking, but not so good that Hac Tao become broken. Well, in N1, all you could do to HI with a hacking device was to STOP them (the GOTCHA! program in N3). essentially by crashing the armor's OS. That is still reasonable now.
remember that any program that could be used on zuyongs would also be used on better HI. The fixes to a unit should never come in form of a general fix to all of the same troop type (which should also happened here with the tactical awareness...)
My general idea as far as Hacking is concerned is that everything should be Hackable, up to and including Ariadnans. Programs to impair and confuse should be able to target any trooper and afflict minor statuses or disable equipment. More dangerous programs that can isolate or immobilise should be restricted to targetting HI. TAGs and REMs should be subject to the most powerful programs, and Killer Hackers could stay at their existing power level under this new Hacking paradigm as Hacking would be far more relevant. Low-tech would feel like far less of an advantage if breaking Stealth under Repeater coverage risked a Flash attack from an overloaded visor or having your weapons disabled for a turn.
What if the benefits of some given HI buff hacking program could have a cap built-in? The same way a possessed TAG has a different statline, but in this case it'd be a buff.
Zuyong isn't a bad HI. They're restricted in performance because they are HI, not because they have bad specs as such. All a Hac Tao does extra is be able to avoid stuff that typically restricts HI through Markers state and Stealth. I would argue that the iffiness comes in when you take hyper-optimised HI into account. Hac Tao and Swiss aren't exactly hyper-optimized, but do you really want to buff Riot Grrls or Hollowmen too much? There are numerous ways of doing it, I'd say. Focus on QOL stuff. Small benefits that help negate the hackable status such as army-wide Stealth on HI and TAGs. Focus on stuff that's typical for the premium HI already. Maybe single-unit Mimetism. Use the hacker themselves. E.g. a puppet program could allow you to coordinate up to 3 HI, but they'd use the Hacker's BS value Mess with the stuff that makes the hyper-optimised HI good. Above puppet program might be there only to allow one of your HMG-toting HI act as if a Hacker Specialist for an order, that's powerful in itself, but is it really worth getting kicked out of the Fireteam and exposing them to potential Frenzy triggering?
