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[Spoil]Dahshat 300pt looks like haqqislam pack

Discussion in 'Haqqislam' started by HBS, Sep 27, 2019.

  1. HBS

    HBS New Member

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    Dahshat 300pt pack──────────────────────────────────────────────────GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5 [​IMG]5 [​IMG]2 GHULAM Doctor Plus (MediKit) Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 16) ODALISQUE Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 30) BASHI BAZOUK (Specialist Operative) Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 17) ZÚYǑNG Lieutenant (AutomediKit) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1 | 39) FASID Heavy Rocket Launcher, Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (2 | 45) HUNZAKUT (Deployable Repeater) Rifle + Light Grenade Launcher, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18) KUM Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 10) KUM Rifle + Light Shotgun, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 19) NAJJARUN Engineer Rifle + Light Shotgun, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 17) NASMAT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) NASMAT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) WARCOR (Sixth Sense L1) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]2 ZHĒNCHÁ Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 41) SAITO TOGAN Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, EXP CCW, Knife. (0 | 39) 5 SWC | 300 PointsOpen in Infinity Army
     
  2. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    I mean, it's not news to me that:

    1) Dashat was a mistake;
    2) Army builder export formatting should be fixed.
     
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  3. Xeurian

    Xeurian Well-Known Member

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    Wait, Rifle Bashi Bazouk? Is that a new model?
     
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  4. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    Apparently.
     
  5. HotFreshTofu

    HotFreshTofu Well-Known Member

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    Good for red veil owners
     
  6. Fenrir

    Fenrir Well-Known Member

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    Dashat is what Ramah should have been (in haqqislam mode)
     
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  7. Xeurian

    Xeurian Well-Known Member

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    Huh? Very little HI, no super soldiers, Khanate options, QK options and a bunch of mercs? I don't understand what you mean.
     
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  8. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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  9. Fenrir

    Fenrir Well-Known Member

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    easy to explain

    Dashat = all linkable with all

    Ramah = all usefull links are boring in a couple of games

    I explain dashat can link bounty hunter as wildcard, they got like 3 or 4 characters that are wildcard, duo maggy too, zyuongs as haris and core with all wildcards and rui shi. Lots of funny thinks to do as a sectorial.

    In the other hand ramah we only got kawarij(fat2) + ghulam + naffatum core or zhayedans (Yes, they are in ramah) or jenissaries linkable with more jenissaries ONLY CORE AVAILABLE, Just 1 wildcard leila, tariq doesnt count cause you only play him because crits, so fair.. and boring (Im telling this because I play it a lot and my oppenent cant do anything when I crit them 7 or more times in 2 turns). So we have the option to play ghulam + things + muktar haris (with kawarij fat2 meta list) or jenissaries if you gonna play like a 10 order man list. If you wont play core link in ramah just play vanilla is preatty much the same or better.

    the point is that why i would play ramah when dashat is similar with maggy and zuyongs = jenissaries and lots of diferents links you never get bored.
     
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  10. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Eh, subjective matters I guess.

    To me RTF doesn't look too appealing because it's about a random mishmash of pieces stuffed into mixed links that is also guilty of leaving out units that could use such help and of turning the rest into relatively static gun platforms which is probably as boring as you can get in Infinity. And I sure have not gotten into Haqq to play with those straightforward concepts.
    It did not capitalize on what could potentially make otherwise outsider pieces like Khawarijis and Zhayedans stand out in terms of playstyle (which would require remaking units themselves, perhaps), it didn't offer much help to more interesting but lacking units like Al-Fasid, it probably didn't offer the best lists to run TAG. Also it's a bit sad that CB decided to just copy TAG concept from Morats for our sectorial-specific TAG loadout instead of trying to capitalize on existing fetus of a unique design present on Maggie. Also appearance of generic units and those from other sectorial. This does not sit well with me at all. But I guess the moment we were shown new RTF units it has become clear that uniformity is a new vision here.

    As for Dashat, cited advantage of their design, being able to bring shit from like 4 different factions and link all that together - to me it's literally the worst and laziest design one could have come up with. And that's not even the half of what I take issue with then it come to Dashat. I can't even find proper words to express how much I loathe, despise and disrespect this pile of letters in PDF, along with some other NA2 armies, you can easily guess which ones.

    Okay, I should probably stop ranting before I insult someone here.

    One more thing though, on Fat2. Let's not forget that there in no player agency in Infinity's dice rolling system, and saying that someone couldn't do anything because of crits means disregarding the fact that there's literally nothing players can ever do once they finished Skill declarations and start rolling dice, Fat2 or not. It just creates another strong winning dice result, which you have a ton in every rollout already.

    Arguably, there are valid concerns about interactions with armor (because ARM isn't one big concern as it is already, eh?) and how powerful Fat2 becomes when you are heavily outstacked in terms of mods, but otherwise it isn't, and I feel it's just some of you folks overhyping crits as an abstract idea.

    Stop falling for cognitive biases is what I'm saying.
     
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  11. Fenrir

    Fenrir Well-Known Member

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    I will tell you the truth last year i went to one turnament with ramah and I win it because of Fat lvl 2 crit. in 3 games 15 or 20 crits, more or less the half of that was for fat lvl 2. (both list with kawarij fat2 or tariq fat2)

    Like 1 month ago I went to another tournament this time with vanilla (both list with kawarij fat2 or tariq fat2) and it happens again, like 15-20 crits in 3 games.

    In the games my opponents were frustating about this mecanic cause it happens often. But what can i do? For my expirience is haqqislam meta. And I would take them every time in tournament if my purpose is winning that tournament, if not I can try other models just for fun. Because of that i think this mechanic is dissapointing for both sites of the table.

    (I'm only talking about haqqislam I dont want to acusse other meta factions)
     
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  12. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    Fat2 isn't nearly as much of an issue as people make it out to be. We're rolling d20s. I ran Tarik and a Fat2 Khawarij 10 games in a row and didn't roll any crits with either of them. (My point is that anecdotal evidence of a crit winning a game is kind of moot).
     
  13. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Just for fun, keep track of how many F2F you win because of mimetism, link bonuses, BS increased by 1-2 compared to baseline 11 and other BS Attack enhancers - I mean those you would otherwise whiff or lose. You'd be surprised how Fat2 is nothing special in comparison to those - unless you decide to shoot some frontovik in cover from your -6 range, of course.

    Sounds like too much trouble? But you do keep track on Fat2 for some reason, right?
    Well, that's because Fat2 winning rollouts for you is immediately obvious even if you're not trying, and hence the rule suffers from cognitive biases where other shooting steroids get away scot-free. Throw those aside - and Fat2 is, in most reasonable cases, an equivalent of roughly +2 BS, give or take. So, slightly worse or sometimes slightly better Mimetism.

    So yeah, in this game well known for its lethality EBS 15+3, B5, DAM 15 shooter murders things it gets pointed at. Nothing new here.
     
    #13 Barrogh, Oct 1, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2019
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  14. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    Dice calculator should tell us exactly how much and in what situations Fat2 beats or fails to beat mimetism.
     
  15. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. I did a round of tests a few months ago and stopped worrying about Fat2 since then.
    While Fat2 often becomes more powerful thanks to proliferation of linked models with extra mods, and so people often test against those on "those that matter" basis, we're still comparing the rule with basic tier-1 shooting steroid.

    Fun fact, I went to dice calculator after hearing an opinion from a local player that "from now on, there are only two ways to play Infinity competitively: SEF and RTF". Well, while SEF does indeed worry me somewhat, the specific basis on which that statement was made is not convincing to me.
     
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  16. TriggerPuller9000

    TriggerPuller9000 Poverty Orde Wingate

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    This is really a sticker for me as well, and I was psyched for Ramah. The main issues for me are,

    1) Mobility. The links involve units with vastly different mobility characteristics (Khawarij + core troops, Tarik + Mukhtar) and that limits how useful they are for maneuver. It's not a deal breaker, it just makes them harder to use.

    2) Options don't exist where they clearly could. Jannissaries mixed with core line troops, or a way to Haris them (think Varuna) would make them a much more attractive option. It might be cool to run an HMG or missile in a core link, or a Hortlak + Akbar Doc + Leila Haris to cover a few different range bands.

    3) The distribution of unit costs is inverse normal, meaning that there are lots of ~10-12 point units, and lots of 30+ point units, but very few standout profiles hovering around 20 where you tend to see things like efficient skirmishers. This makes list building fairly difficult since you have cheap guys and expensive guys, but few guys in the middle. You usually aren't trading one expensive guy for two mid tier...you're trading for 3 cheaper orders.

    Unit *factions* aside, but with respect to unit types, Dashat fills those gaps. The only exception is the Rui Shi, which IMO does just as well on its own from a straight dicing fools perspective. You can run your HI and LI together, you can run your compact HI Haris, etc.
     
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  17. ik3rian

    ik3rian Anti-Ariadnian Specialist

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    I dont know what is this mistake we are speaking about, but i think i get the jist of it. I will be trying Dashat soon since my minis have arrived, but i think it is the Zhuyong link that draws me in there? It feels more competent somehow to me than our HI links (apart from lacking the doctor, grr.) and i can see myself playing killing or zonecontrol missions with them. Specialist are somehow scarce there, at least imo.
     
  18. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Our "HI links" are rather "take all comers" links at this point, pretty much same as Dashat though. Variety of tools those have access to is nice, although they often don't come from actual HI models there.
     
  19. ik3rian

    ik3rian Anti-Ariadnian Specialist

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    Yeah, i am not denying it, just cant really find a reason why do i really feel that.
    It might be just because Dashat has only three Cores avaliable, as opposed to 5 in RTF and 7 in Qapu where you can find Jannisaries. My point is, they statistically see more action as a core there than our Heavy Boys. I am skipping Asawiras here, because i view them as a more close up and personal HI, which really fits me BTW.
    Thinking of it, if i would have to field full 5 man core in Dashat (which i am not a biggest fan recently) then it would be TA HMG, LT, FO, ML and Rui Shi. Add specialists and McMurderface to fill 10 orders and it is an aggresive list, but here is the thing - in Haqq my usual problem is "which specialists i want to field", and in Dashat is "where are the specialist".
    Rather fun army, more fun for me than Ramah and maybe even Qapu, but i dont know if i would deploy them for buttonpushing mission.
     
  20. Ariwch

    Ariwch Tournament benthotic lurker

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    Ghulam doctor, Ashcroft, Rafiq with Red Fury, Hunzakuts (!!!), Dozers and our own Najjarun-bicyclists, Bazouk-operatives and also Zhencha for weirdos and Hulang for even more weird weirdos – it looks like Dahshat does not suffer form the lack of specialist options.
     
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