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Holoprojector L3 and ODD (who said Patrocle?)

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Ayadan, Dec 18, 2017.

  1. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    Ok, thank you, I like the way you're saying it. Super Jump problem solved and Move problem solved to me. Thanks @Valmiir and @Barrogh
    Good!
    You see I'm not willing to break the rules, just understand it.
    So, Steath don't work as what would suggest this :

    Holoprojector L2 and Hacking. Hackable Characteristic Example:
    The perfidious Interventor Morgana gets an ARO when an Order Sergeant model enters her Zone of Control. Morgana asks if that trooper has the Hackable Characteristic, and surprisingly she gets a "yes" as reply. With evil satisfaction, the Interventor declares a Hacking ARO against that model. Morgana succeeds at the roll only to realize much to her chagrin that it was just a Holoecho and not a real trooper. However, now she knows some of the other Order Sergeants are a Holy Sepulchre Knight bearing a Holoprojector L2. The game has just started.
    Even if the last sentence is a bit weird because of the Holoecho Markers, it was already obvious there was a KotHS around.

    Last question: can I gang up with my Holoechoes?
     
  2. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Gang up?
     
  3. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    Yes Gang up. As they are considered troopers for orders and ARO and last until the end of the order, do they provide the benefits of multiple troopers in CC?
     
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Holoecho has an exhaustive list where they are considered troopers, they otherwise do not fulfil the requirements for being troopers (yes, I know, the rules are not consistent in the definition of a trooper). Please see the below where I added underline for emphasis.

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Holoecho

    The Holoechoes are considered real troopers in regards to providing AROs, checking LoF, and activating enemy weapons or pieces of Equipment (Mines, E/Maulers, etc.), but since they act simultaneously, all three provide only one ARO to each enemy in LoF or ZoC.
     
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  5. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    Ok, I was thinking the same but wanted to be sure.

    I'll do a recap later. This could be useful for anyone who is wondering how this device works as it was a hell to understand it in the good way.
     
  6. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Apart from what Mahtamori said, what rule would be giving gang-up bonuses?

    The Holoechos are neither troopers in a Fireteam, G: Synched, G: Servant and Controller, multiple troopers in a Coordinated Order, nor are they troopers in combat that haven't been activated by Order or ARO.
     
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  7. Minos

    Minos Νίκη ἢ Θάνατος

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    Necromancy, as asked by @Arkhos94
    And back to the initial question.

    Let’s go with Patroclus who has an ODD (Obligatory Equipment) or CH: Mimetism (Obligatory Special Skill), and the Special Skill MA3 (granting him the Stealth optional Special Skill).


    Holoprojector L1 State

    1) "A trooper in Holoprojector L1 state cannot replicate those Deployable weapons or pieces of Equipment represented by a Marker or model (TinBots, FastPandas, SymbioMates, Mines deployed by the Minelayer Special Skill...) the imitated model or himself could have."

    → No need to argue, due to the NFB Trait, the ODD cannot work. Fine.


    2) Example : "A Hafza in Holoprojector L1 state imitating a Hassassin Lasiq suffers an enemy BS Attack. Even though his Special Skills, weapons and pieces of Equipment are considered Private Information, the Hafza cannot apply the CH: Mimetism Special Skill of the Lasiq. This means that during the Resolution step of the Order, when MODs are applied, the Hafza's player must inform his opponent that there is no CH: Mimetism MOD to apply."

    → This example only concerns an actual Trooper that has NOT the CH: Mimetism Special Skill, not the opposite. Thus the CH : Mimetism version of Patroclus should keep his Mimetism as well as he keeps his other Special Skills.



    Holoprojector L2/L3 – Holoecho State

    3) "A trooper in Holoecho state cannot replicate those Deployable weapons or pieces of Equipment represented by a Marker or model (TinBots, FastPandas, SymbioMates, Mines deployed by the Minelayer Special Skill...) the imitated model or himself could have. However, the Holoecho state replicates all the game state Markers (Prone, Unloaded...) the Holoprojector L2 bearer has."

    → There’s nothing about the other pieces of Equipment. As the rules underline an exception, we should consider that all other pieces of Equipment ARE replicated. Thus the Holoechoes should replicate the ODD.


    4) "The bearer of Holoprojector L2 and his holographic decoys act the same time, performing exactly the same Order declared. However, the holographic decoys cannot interact with scenery, considering any Activate or Alert declaration as an Idle."

    → The use of a Special Skill (Obligatory or Optional) is part of the declared Order. As stated, the Holoecho performs exactly the same Order declared, bare the two exceptions clearly stated above (and if not cancels the state). Thus a Holoecho should be able to perform the same Skills used in the declared Order, that is, the Holoechoes should feature the CH:Mimetism Special Skill, and the Stealth Special Skill if used by the actual model.


    As a consequence, my thoughts are that:
    - Patroclus (ODD) cannot use his ODD in Holoprojector L1 state but can use Stealth;
    - Patroclus (Mimetism) uses Mimetism and can use Stealth in Holoprojector L1 state;
    - Patroclus (ODD) and his Holoechoes as well use ODD and can use Stealth (all the same);
    - Patroclus (Mimetism) and his Holoechoes as well use Mimetism and can use Stealth (all the same).

    What are your thoughts?
     
  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    1: This one states that you can't replicate Markers or Models, meaning you can't replicate, for example, Xi Zhuang's MadTraps nor can Holoproject a Camo Marker "totally not a Mine" on the board. This has nothing to do with NFB.
    2: What this example says is that the trooper's true MODs have to be revealed. If someone is shooting at the real Patroclus who is pretending to be 3 Thorakitai in Holo3, you'd be forced to inform your opponent that there is a Mimetism or ODD MOD to apply as well. Yes, I'm leaving out interpreting Holo2 or Holo1 for a reason.
    3: Same as 1, this one tells you you can't pretend to have skills that lets you place stuff on the table. Do note that "replicate" isn't the same as actually having it since it is referring to the pretence of having it, and also note that this is specifically dealing with Markers the Holo2 trooper has and ODD is not a Marker.
    4: This one deals with skill declarations, Mimetism and ODD are not declared.

    So, my take on it is that the rules don't say either way and because of this the effects of ODD or Mimetism on Patroclus' echoes should not happen. Similarly they should not trigger Fury.
     
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  9. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Stealth is not a skill that is Declared.

    It is an Automatic skill, so it can be waived if you don't want to use it, but to be Declared as part of an order or needs to be a Short Skill, Short Movement Skill, Entire Order Skill, or ARO.

    So if you Declare Move+Move all the Holoechos Move+Move, the exact same skills have been Declared.

    Whether you use Stealth or not is immaterial as it is Automatic. It does not affect your Declared skills.

    As for the use of ODD or Mimetism, they only protect the bearer. For the decoy Holoechos to use them they would also need ODD or mimetism on their profile, which they clearly don't as the decoy Holoechos don't have a profile.
     
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  10. Minos

    Minos Νίκη ἢ Θάνατος

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    The two main points are:

    Does the rule say that Holoecho doesn't replicate Equipment (save Deployable Equipment represented by Markers/models): no.
    The exceptions are listed, I don't know what we need more to understand that ODD is replicated...
    No interpretation here IMO.

    So do the Holoechoes use Stealth or not? If they do, they also use Mimetism as the two Special Skills are Obligatory.
     
  11. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Where does it say that Holoechos replicate the effects of ODD? "it doesn't say it doesn't" is not the same as saying it does.
    Holoechos don't have the Stealth skill, they don't have ODD, and they don't have Mimetism, so they can't use any of them.
     
  12. Minos

    Minos Νίκη ἢ Θάνατος

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    Lol. That's exactly why I think we should have an official answer, because it explicitly says no to others Equipments.

    Holoechoes have no skills by themselves, but they do replicate such things that it is weird to arbitrarily separate one from the other.
    By the way, if a Holo hadn't Stealth, it would mean that you can play the same game you play with fireteams (Stealth / not Stealth) to force dumb ARO. I'd like, but I'm not sure this is a good interpretation.
     
  13. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Do they? Where does it say that?

    They perform exactly the same Order Declared, nothing is said about replicating skills, or the effects thereof.
     
  14. Minos

    Minos Νίκη ἢ Θάνατος

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    To paraphrase you: it doesn't say it does is not the same as saying it doesn't.
    The structure of an order is two Short Skills or a Long Skill, so they by essence replicate Skills and their effects. Why wouldn't they replicate Obligatory ones or Optional ones used by the bearer?

    It's also funny to note we have to imagine they have the same Movement value than the bearer...

    If a Holo L3 model had Super-Jump, would the Holoechoes idle? That's not in the exceptions.
    There's more holes in that rule than on a colander...
     
  15. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    "The bearer of Holoprojector L2 and his holographic decoys act the same time, performing exactly the same Order declared."

    So if the trooper perform a move with the skill stealth activated, the echoes does the same. If the trooper perform a superjump, the echoes does the same.

    Regarding ODD/Mimetism on holoechoes : before the resolution step, you can announce that holoechoes do have ODD, no issue here.

    But when you reach the resolution the "truth" is revealed. Holoprojector lvl 1 state do not copy skill or equipement, holoechoe does not affect automatic skill or equipment. So the echoes does not have mimetism or ODD. So you shoot the echo without ODD or mimetism modifier.

    Patroclus himself use holo lvl 3, which replicate holo 1 and 2 without the NFB label so he will have is ODD or mimetism if shot
     
  16. Minos

    Minos Νίκη ἢ Θάνατος

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    Could you show me the rule that says so?
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    How would someone show that a rule does not exist? Do you have a rule which says Holo copies equipment?
     
  18. Minos

    Minos Νίκη ἢ Θάνατος

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    We have a rule that explicitly says it doesn't copy some Equipment (Deployable, Models). Nothing is said about other equipments. When a rule states an exception, it implicitly means that in the other cases are not concerned.
     
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    It explicitly says you can't pretend to have equipment that is placed externally to the model. You're misreading that rule, as I wrote above.
     
  20. Minos

    Minos Νίκη ἢ Θάνατος

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    I think you're misreading too.
    If ALL Equipments were not replicated, the rule would be:
    A trooper in Holoecho state cannot replicate weapons or pieces of Equipment.
    That's clearly not the case.
    My only concern is to have an official answer, not convincing anyone!
     
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