1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

We need to talk about grenade launchers. [ISS]

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by valukr, Sep 26, 2019.

  1. valukr

    valukr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2019
    Messages:
    116
    Likes Received:
    119
    I'm on what I'd call my "third wave of innovation" regarding ISS. Each coming on the back of tournaments where I've done some-things modestly and others exceptionally with the faction.

    Most recently I've been trying to utilize my Kuang Shi, particularly their bio locators. I'll be first to admit that i am quite hipster and adverse to ever relying on Kuang Shi as simple order batteries.

    One of the things in particular, i find playing the ISS, is the reliance on the KS Controller for smoke. This is often a 3/5 man core link. This really can be restrictive in list building, or at the minimum costly for command tokens.

    In a recent games I've managed to use KS in bio-locator state so that i could specfire smoke onto them, when required. In one case this allowed me to place smoke on an objective, in another it let me engage into CC with a Crane, whilst another allowed the RuiShi to get supportware and engage an enemy through smoke.

    My first question is, what are your thoughts on sacrificing that core link and instead rely on the use of biolocators and specfire? Statistically, the target numbers would be 1d 14, 17, 11, at range bands 8", 16" and 32" respectively. Versus the linked option that would be 2d 11s, 14s, 8s. Order intensity aside, I find that reasonable, if i could find some additional value somewhere, i think it could be feasible, which leads me to look at GL's available in the faction.

    I've come to notice the abundance of grenade launchers available to ISS in the forms of Dakini, Celestrial Guard and Wu-Ming(nimbus and normal).

    The obvious opportunity of Spotlight and spec-fire is clear and apparent, and has been around since Nomads, and in itself is not ground breaking. However, the mobility of our repeaters through KS and the multitude of their capacity inspired me to consider this further. For spotlight I've come to consider the EVO hacker as the best option, f̶o̶r̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶o̶f̶f̶e̶r̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶u̶s̶e̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶K̶a̶l̶e̶i̶d̶o̶s̶c̶o̶p̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶i̶m̶p̶o̶s̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶-̶3̶ ̶w̶i̶p̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶o̶p̶p̶o̶n̶e̶n̶t̶s̶ ̶r̶e̶s̶e̶t̶s̶ (cheers RZ and SRanger) as well as offering a unique game ability of re-rolling a die. An opportunity available after seeing the result of your opponents roll. This, is unique because it allows you to seize on the opportunity of your opponent failing a roll, and in effect giving you 1 normal roll at the cost of a command token.

    Now, turning back to my tried and tested use of sniffers and sensors, I thought of incorporating Sat-lock into the tool-box. Seeing as I already intend to utilize the EVO for the spotlight opportunities, which does away with the -6 penalty to Sat-Lock, this again doubles the value of sniffers. Now you can use sniffers in-cooperation with sat-lock to target and discover enemy camo in the midfield. You can either force them to reset and reveal in a f2f roll with opportunity to target them, or alternatively force them to gamble on you failing your WIP 13 roll, which from my understanding you can try again.

    Has anyone tried this sort of approach to the ISS ? Thoughts?
    Imperial Service
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]5
    WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)
    PANGGULING Hacker (EVO Hacking Device) Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 25)
    CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KǍNRÈN Minelayer Boarding Shotgun, Chain-colt, Sniffer / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 27)
    RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 20)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]8
    CELESTIAL GUARD (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    CELESTIAL GUARD (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    CELESTIAL GUARD Combi Rifle + Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 17)
    CELESTIAL GUARD Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    CRANE IMPERIAL AGENT Lieutenant (Sensor, X Visor) MULTI Rifle, 2 Nanopulsers / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 52)
    GARUDA Tacbot Boarding Shotgun / Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)
    DAKINI Tacbot Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 15)
    NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)

    3 SWC | 299 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Spoiler list, made up on the spot. The groups are not optimized. The list does not need to be so order intensive, it could easily be built to be LI/12/14/15 orders.

    Hope this rant was stimulating
     
    #1 valukr, Sep 26, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2019
    Barrogh, WiT?, Azuset and 3 others like this.
  2. SpectralOwl

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2018
    Messages:
    1,891
    Likes Received:
    3,130
    Don't forget the Son-Bae Yaokong in that type of list. It's more accurate and damaging against Targeted enemies than any of the grenade launchers, and you can put Enhanced Reaction on it to create a dangerous ARO threat if needed. Some Pheasant options, including the cheapest, also carry Stun Grenades which can be useful against serious heavyweights that the LGL wouldn't scratch.
     
    Section9, smog and valukr like this.
  3. smog

    smog Well-Known Member
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2017
    Messages:
    211
    Likes Received:
    276
    It will be less order intensive and a better bet to spec fire on the kuang shi instead of trying to spotlight the enemy model through the repeater. It’ll also hit any camo markers in the blast.

    The down side is that you lose that order from the KS for the rest next turns and you probably only get one try unless the KS passes his armor save.
     
    #3 smog, Sep 26, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2019
  4. KestrelM1

    KestrelM1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2017
    Messages:
    216
    Likes Received:
    441
    I like the idea, and I've even tried it out a couple times. But every time I found myself in a situation where I could Biolocator and fire guided/spec fire I found myself asking "why don't I just shoot the enemy with my Dogged Chain Rifle?"

    And I think that's the core flaw with Biolocator, at least as a tool for spec/guided fire. It requires you to get within 5" of an enemy with a Kuang Shi to execute, at which point you have a Kuang Shi within 5" of an enemy. Tack on the extra orders you have to spend to actually activate the biolocator and even more to launch the attack, plus the fact that you usually only get one shot before your Kuang Shi dies, and it just seems inefficient.

    There's some promise to the Sat-lock route, but I don't think the Kuang Shi should be the primary cog in that machine. Weibings, Chaiyi, and Kanren Minelayers offer more reliable avenues at fewer orders than trying to move a Kuang Shi into range.

    Even then I can't recommend spec/guided fire as a dedicated strategy because there are times when it's simply not a good idea. Unless you are going to hit 3+ models with a missile or lock on to something extremely chunky and game-definining like a TAG, you are very often better served just spending orders firefighting than dumping tons of orders hoping a single-dice 13 vs 13 will go your way. And if you've invested a large portion of your list into making this happen (Pangguling plus Son-Bae plus Weibing at minimum), it can be extremely frustrating when it doesn't work or there simply aren't any good targets.

    If you do want to try out spec fire I advise opting for the Celestial Guard, Dakini, or Wu Ming LGLs over the Son-Bae. The Wu Ming especially is a MULTI Rifle HI that happens to have an LGL, and you don't even get charged SWC for the privilege. Most crucially they're all models that can get work done even if you don't manage to get anything Targeted. In my eyes that makes them a much more reliable investment than the Son-Bae.

    If you're enthusiastic about making guided fire work then don't let this post turn you off from trying; Imperial Service is definitely a sectorial with a ton of interesting options for that strategy. I just want to caution that in my personal experience it hasn't really worked out the way I'd hoped.
     
  5. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2018
    Messages:
    5,931
    Likes Received:
    5,079
    To me, the Bio-locator is all about Repeater. Not the Targeted state. It's very situational targeted but less so for making a repeater where you need it. I would not use it instead of a core link. The core is very reliable for getting the smoke down. 2 shots in one place or 2 different places is fantastic. All for one order. Biolocator is going to need to get the KS where it needs to be. Then an order to use BL. Then an order to do the shot.

    One thing to note: CG also have a regular LGL.

    Wu Ming are fantastic. Multi-Rifle+LGL with Reg and Nimbus is great. Expensive but fairly reliable.
     
    valukr and Zewrath like this.
  6. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    993
    Likes Received:
    1,529
    This bit confuses me. Isn't Kaleidoscope a penalty to enemy hackers trying to go after your own hackers? Like a non-firewall firewall mod.
     
  7. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2018
    Messages:
    5,931
    Likes Received:
    5,079
    It's Reboot i think. Also, it affects your own Reset against a hacking attack. It's almost like a Tinbot A. It's kind of nice because it can be used by everything that's hackable and does a Reset against it. It is cumulative with Tinbots as well. But not Fairy Dust.
    • Thanks to Reboot, any of the Hackers, HIs, REMs or TAGs from the same Army List that declare a Reset impose a WIP-3 MOD to their adversaries' Face to Face Roll.
    This WIP-3 MOD is not cumulative with the Firewall MODs.

    Kaleidoscope is like a Tinbot A for all of your hackers. But hackers only. It can't work with Fairy Dust, but it can work with a Tinbot. So if a Shang Ji AHD or Haido KHD in a link with a Tinbot B, is attacked or re-acted to by a hacker, the attacker is at -9 to hacking right off!

    In active turn the enemy can either Reset at normal or Attack back at -9.
    in re-active you still are -9 to be hacked.

    Edit: oh and if it's a 5-man squad the hacker has Sixth Sense, So no surprises either.
    • Thanks to Kaleidoscope, any of the Hackers from the same Army List that suffer a Hacking Attack impose a WIP-3 MOD to their adversaries' Roll.
    This WIP-3 MOD is not cumulative with the Firewall MODs.
     
  8. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    993
    Likes Received:
    1,529
    Sure but neither of those is a -3 to your opponent resetting against Spotlight? Its always on hacking aimed at your own models.

    Edit: Just realized I didn't clip my previous quote enough and its confusing. Relevant line I was focused on.

     
    valukr likes this.
  9. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    2,000
    Likes Received:
    3,484
    Agreed. I've only used the Biolocator twice* and both times where for putting down a repeater in my 3rd round, in order to do a Hacking Classified.

    *: I've actually used it tons of times, but only two times as a repeater/targeted. All the other times I've ever used it was to score a free classified with the Sophotech, doing Experimental Drug.
     
    valukr likes this.
  10. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6,148
    Likes Received:
    9,666
    Stun grenades (or ammo from multirifles) are honestly your best bet for stopping a beefy HI or TAG on a rambo run.
     
    valukr likes this.
  11. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,025
    Likes Received:
    1,408
    As a Tohaa player I legitimately just don't understand how hacking works, and don't have much experience with sniffers either.

    Just wondering how what OP is suggesting works. Am I right in saying its;
    • Kuang shi run near a target and kill itself to become a repeater
    • Sniffer REM or Kanren deploys a Sniffer near by as well
    • Sensorbot or Crane etc sensors the area
    • EVO Hacker spotlights "without the -6 penalty" (can someone explain the -6 penalty? I don't see it on wiki, not sure what I'm missing) to mark the target
    • Something attempts to nuke it
    Is that right? Or am I missing something that lets you spotlight a marker or something cool like that?

    If its this way, I like the idea of it as a part of a list that can function without it, but not as a core component - as that is a lot of steps! About sums up the game imo that you need to bring like five specialized units just to counter cheap camo lol...
     
    valukr likes this.
  12. KestrelM1

    KestrelM1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2017
    Messages:
    216
    Likes Received:
    441
    What you're missing is the Sat-Lock special skill. Only a Yaokong Weibing can declare the skill, but may target anything within its Sensor Area, which comprises its own Zone of Control as well as the ZoC of any friendly Sniffers on the table. Sat-Lock is rather unique in that it can be declared against Camouflage markers without having to reveal them first. Normally this skill requires a WIP-6 roll to succeed, but the -6 penalty is ignored if there is a friendly EVO Hacking Device present on the table. This is a passive effect of the EVO.
     
    WiT? likes this.
  13. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,025
    Likes Received:
    1,408
    Cheers for clearing that up. Thats pretty legit. I really like the strategy as support for a linked Wu Ming LGL as someone mentioned earlier - big numbers for the attack, and works fine without using any speculative fire at all.
     
    valukr likes this.
  14. valukr

    valukr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2019
    Messages:
    116
    Likes Received:
    119
    @TheRedZealot cheers for correcting me regarding the kaleidoscope

    @KestrelM1 I'm not suggesting it as the main theme to the list, i am trying to point out how much synergy it has within ISS. I am also not suggesting specfiring grenades onto KS, only smoke. The only situation i see that being useful is if a camo marker is being stubborn, and you bait them by moving towards them first order, threatening to discover, they choose not to act, in which you then proceed to activate biolocator and shoot your own KS so as to clip their camo marker.

    I'm just saying that considering how much synergy there is here, it is worth brainstorming. I really like the idea of using stun grenades, as i've never had experience with them.

    @Space Ranger The problem with the core link is its restrictiveness, Wu-ming/Zhangying and Crane/CG links are costing you a command token everyturn. Additionally, the CG core, has to be safe when it shoots and therefore it is a bit restricted in where it can shoot.

    I also like that once you put down 1 or 2 biolocator/repeaters, in key positions, you have a repeater presence to defend you against HI/Tags, as well as potentially cause problems for enemy hacker button pushers, assuming you have relevant hackers. Not to mention, you now have the ability to get smoke to those key positions easily. I think the learning curve in this play will be recognizing the value areas on the board for your KS where they will be useful for more than 1 turn. I guess once your opponent starts double tapping your bio-locators you're on the right track
     
    SpectralOwl and TheRedZealot like this.
  15. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    993
    Likes Received:
    1,529
    Theres plenty of times where I've missed something so I always figure its better to ask first. :)
     
    Azuset likes this.
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation