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Hidden lieutenant and LoL

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Belgrim, Dec 9, 2017.

  1. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    See Executive Order, which triggers when the trooper 'is placed on the game table for deployment' (my emphasis). This is what lets the Hac Tao take over as LT by revealing from Hidden Deployment.

    It doesn't trigger, because nothing says that it triggers. It doesn't hint anything.
     
  2. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Okay, thanks.

    'Loss of Lieutenant' only states 'not yet deployed',
    but 'Lieutenant' states 'not yet deplyoed on the game table'.
    In regard to Hidden Deployment this is a difference.

    So the entry for LoL misses what is stated under Lieutenant.
    This clarifies this question, a least for me.
    Thank you!
     
  3. Deus Kalsa

    Deus Kalsa Member

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    Don't get it .
    He is deployed.

    The not yet condition is not full filled. The model was deployed during the Deployment Phase.

    He was not represented on the table but still deployed.

    You can't deployed any anywhere else than on the gaming table.
     
  4. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, the 'not on the game table' part is the part that matters.

    The rules for Lieutenant state that you enter LoL if the Lieutenant is not yet deplyoed on the game table.
    (The rules for LoL only state 'not yet deployed' - the 'on the game table'-part is missing.)
    And as Hidden Deployment states you are considered to be not on the table,
    you are also yonsidered to be in LoL.
     
  5. Deus Kalsa

    Deus Kalsa Member

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    I under stand this.

    But not yet is chanceled after Deployment because the Lt was deployed (as Hidden Deployment says) a physical Model or marker is not request.
     
  6. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Which means that it has not been deployed ‘on the game table’. Which means that you will be in Loss of Lieutenant.
     
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  7. Deus Kalsa

    Deus Kalsa Member

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    I have some doubts about this.
     
  8. gorin

    gorin Well-Known Member

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    Quantum lieutenant. He is not deployed before the sensor found him, and he is deployed after the sensor found him.
     
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  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    To be fair, this is fairly accurate description of Hidden Deployment. It's not there except when it is :)
     
  10. Deus Kalsa

    Deus Kalsa Member

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    I my opion this is a very clear Definition where on the table the model is hidding.
     
  11. gorin

    gorin Well-Known Member

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    From Hidden Deployment:
    • The Hidden Deployment state is a special form of deployment that allows the user to deploy during the Deployment Phase but place neither model nor Marker on the battlefield.
    From Loss of Lieutenant:

    Activation
    If, during the Tactical Phase of the Active Turn, the Active Player lacks a Lieutenant because they did not deploy or the previous Lieutenant is currently in a Null (Unconscious, Dead, Sepsitorized...) or Isolated state, then a situation of Loss of Lieutenant is automatically declared.

    its a different wording in all pages, its bad and should not be justified. If my lt in hd, he is deployed. There is no lol because he is deployed, no matter on the table or not. I've newer played like this, but there is no clear wording on this situation.
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    In strict rules theory, you are obliged to follow all rules put forth. When there are several rules which all can end up in the same situation but in different ways, you will end up in that situation as long as at least one is fulfilled even if you find they are inconsistent.

    If you wish to make them consistent you need to change the agreement between you and your opponent, we typically call this a house rule.

    As it stands, when you hidden deploy an LT it is the Lieutenant rule that sends you into LoL even though the LoL rule itself doesn't. It is a legitimate complaint that the rules are not consistent but this does not mean they contradict each other nor that you're allowed to at your own initiative disregard one or the other rule.
     
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  13. Deus Kalsa

    Deus Kalsa Member

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    Right.

    But even in the LT rules stands not deployed yet.
    So lol will not triggered, because he was deployed.
    He was considered as not on the table but he was still deployed.
    Point 5 did not say considered as not deployed. It say considered not on the table. That are two differend rules.
     
  14. Dedled

    Dedled Speculo Agent

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    Sorry, I don't understand, if he isn't on the game table, then how can sensor effect him? In the rules for sensor it says "discover units in HD in the troopers sensor area", wouldn't this suggest that he is on the table?

    Edit: If the unit isn't considered to be on the table then it can't be in another units sensor area, therefore it must be on the table.
     
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Keep in mind that what the word "considered" means is that even though the model might actually be on the table, for all rules (unless explicitly stated otherwise) the model will be treated as not on the game table.

    As such, when Lieutenant asks "Is your LT deployed? Is your LT on the game table?", the Hidden Deployment answers "The LT is deployed. The LT is not on the game table"
     
  16. Deus Kalsa

    Deus Kalsa Member

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    But still deployed.

    Maybe the Lt is not on the table he was deployed before. So it is not importend if he is really on the table at this moment or being at starbucks to take the new collectors cup. He was deployed yet. That is all that matters.
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    That is not all that matters because the Lieutenant rule itself, that your Lieutenant is actively using, says that the army goes into Loss of Lieutenant if the Lieutenant is not on the table, and Hidden Deployment says you have to consider the Lieutenant not to be on the table.
     
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  18. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    He is deployed on a certain spot on the table, but he is considered to be not on the table yet.
    [​IMG]
     
  19. Deus Kalsa

    Deus Kalsa Member

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    No that is wrong it don't say that. Please read again. Being not on the table is no trigger for LoL.


     
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  20. Dedled

    Dedled Speculo Agent

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    It doesnt say that at all, it says not deployed;

    In Hidden Deployment it says;
    • The Hidden Deployment state is a special form of deployment that allows the user to deploy during the Deployment Phase but place neither model nor Marker on the battlefield.
    It specifically says you are deploying it. Theres no proviso in LoL stating it has to be on the table, just that it has to be deployed, which it is.
     
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