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Sun Tze (ISS) vs Joan of Arc (PanO) - Decapitation (Spec ops)

Discussion in 'Battle Reports' started by Vaulsc, Sep 12, 2019.

  1. Vaulsc

    Vaulsc Well-Known Member

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    I enjoyed making a battle report of this game so much on YT, I wanted to share it on the forums as well. We're preparing for an ITS next month that will include Spec Ops, on missions like decapitation, capture and protect, countermeasures, safe area, power pack.

    I'm trying Sun Tze for this game, since winning the LT is very important to me, and the recent total immunity buffs make him even better for ARO's.

    ISS Alpha
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]4
    RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 20)
    CELESTIAL GUARD (Infinity Spec-Ops) (12 XP) (WIP:15, Doctor, Engineer, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    YUDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    MAJOR LUNAH Viral Sniper / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 29)
    CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]4
    SUN TZE Lieutenant (Advanced Command) MULTI Rifle, 2 Nanopulsers, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 65)
    CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)
    DAKINI Tacbot HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 21)
    GARUDA Tacbot Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 28)

    6 SWC | 299 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    My opponent is running his double-TAG Joan list, which CB inexplicably made even more powerful due to the poorly-thought-out changes with Tactical Awareness:

    A: Superior firepower, spec ops
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]6 [​IMG]4
    SERAPH HMG, 2 Nanopulsers / EXP CCW. (2 | 79)
    [​IMG] CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. ()
    CUTTER MULTI HMG / . (2.5 | 115)
    [​IMG] CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. ()
    HELOT MILITIAMAN Submachine Gun, Light Rocket Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 9)
    WARCOR (Sixth Sense L1) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)
    MONSTRUCKER Submachine Gun, Chain Rifle, Drop Bears / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    JOAN OF ARC Lieutenant MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (+1 | 49)
    REGULAR (Infinity Spec-Ops) (12 XP) (Minelayer, Engineer) Combi Rifle, Drop Bears (Throwing Weapon), Jammer / Pistol, Knife, D-Charges. (0 | 11)

    5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    PanO take first turn, and the cutter basically moves up and wrecks half the ISS army. However, some desperate measures are taken, and soon it is just Sun Tze himself up against Joan of Arc in a deadly duel that comes right down to the wire....

     
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  2. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    That was a fun match to watch. Are both those lists meant to be high tier competitive, or was this more of an exploratory R&D style game?
     
  3. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    TBH, I'm not a great fan of one MBT+Light TAG+Joan. Sure, you have more or less three good killers but the rest of the list doesn't support them very well. No EVO for Reboot or Exorcism or Fairy Dust, nothing to salvage the loss of Joan against a rambo unit/FT. Yes, she is hard to kill but a decided opponent with the right tools will get her and you just have 2 TAGs with very few orders for them and then, once you have recovered from LoL, you're still crippled by the 4 irregulars in the list. Even if for this Scenario, the LoL isn't occuring, the 4 irregulars are still there.

    Even though, your opponent didn't played it as nicely as it looked. Both TAGs and Joan should support each other. Yes, removing 10 orders from your list was wonderful but even if it had killed you only seven and then retreated in safety, I'm not sure you would had the firepower and the orders to threat two TAGs integrated in an ARO net instead of one TAG in a one with some holes and a second big TAG isolated from his support. To me, the Cutter was already dead where it was left because Sun Tze has still 2W+NWI and TI and Mimetism. He may only have BS 12, there was no way the Cutter could escape alive from a firefight at close range against Sun Tze (excepted if the God of RNG wanted it). And since your list is your opponent's main objective in this scenario, giving him a model costing more than 1/3rd of your list isn't the wiser idea you could have. That's one usual trap of dual TAGs lists. You always think you can throw away one and still rely on the second. But the real value is to force your opponent to face both of them most of the time. Because the rest of the list is pretty weak, you need your TAGs to do all the job, in active and reactive turns. If you look at the exchange you made in points (since it's what is the most rewarding here), the Cutter might have killed about to 90 points in 12 orders. You've killed 115 in way less. This exchange is so much in your favour here! So playing the Seraph after that like there was no threat in your list anymore was the second real mistake. Lunah is not a threat if you have still 3 STR and your at range to CC her as you can fire your two nanopulsers if she tries to shoot/CC you or CC her if she decides to Dodge. But at range, with 11 orders to fuel it, fighting without cover and out of reach of an Engineer is giving a greater chance to your opponent to come back in the game than the minimum you could have given him. I have made such mistakes so much times and seen someone else not doing it so much times too and I have seen the difference. You can take some firefights out of cover, but only if you can't get unconsious from it or if your engineer can reach you, repatch you and still have orders to reach cover after that.

    With those mistakes that could look minimals but that are the difference between a loss and a victory, I say that you deserved this win.

    Understand what I say here like this: it's not to say: "blah! Shame! It was bad playing!". I say all this to maybe give some feedbacks to your opponent so he will stomp you the next time. And I think this is a good video for new players to show them what NOT to do with a TAG and some of the common mistakes you do with it once you're feeling getting the upper hand in the game.

    It was a nice video and the TAGs were really nice to see, excellent paint job.
     
  4. Hexa

    Hexa TAG pilot

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    I'm Vaulsc's opponent in this game.
    Thank you. In the same vein my replies below are meant to explain my reasons, good or bad, as best I remember them, so we (and any readers) can improve from the analysis.


    First I should explain the reason for my reckless charge with the cutter. I couldn't afford to give this particular enemy list a chance to attack while mostly intact, with its smoke launchers and huge number of orders. I spotted an opening on that flank without repeaters which would allow me to shoot lots of cheerleaders, take out the only hacker (I expected a ninja killer hacker, too, which isn't hacking my list cared about), doctor, engineer and that flank's smoke launcher.

    It's certainly a bizarre skew list. I've been finding it viable, to my astonishment.

    Yes, the rest of the list can give some reasonable AROs but nothing amazing. It would be great to have a krakot, MSV2, a sensor and a killer hacker.

    I'm rarely convinced Reboot or Fairy Dust are worth the cost of a hacker and the order, but not having Exorcism is certainly a weakness. I'm VERY cautious around hackers with this list.

    My experience is that an opponent can spend basically their whole turn attempting to kill her, but aren't guaranteed to succeed. After getting past the rest of the army they usually only have a few orders left, which isn't enough to be reliable against such a tough troop: therefore opponents often don't make the attempt on the first turn, and by later turns I've had a chance to take out or avoid major threats.
    What would you suggest for salvaging losing her? CoC would help, but not with the Irregulars. Putting the Irregulars in a second group should work, but not in a list which can only really manage one group.

    Yes, it's a massive risk. Hard to exploit, but if it happens before I do objectives I've virtually lost. Occasionally I'm still able to pin down the whole table afterwards.

    There were a few of reasons I spent my last orders attacking:
    • Firstly I got carried away on the rampage. I misjudged how many orders I'd have to shoot Sun Tze, and thought I could take him down. I was also fairly sure there was a ninja near the building my Seraph ended up dying behind, so I didn't think retreating that way would help.
    • Secondly I left it there to consume Vaulsc's first turn dealing with it, since I was confident that I could win with my remaining TAG and Joan if I had a good order pool on the next turn. It turns out I was wrong on the latter part, but I decided it was better to stop Vaulsc killing my Designated Target or cheerleaders by forcing him to spend most of his orders to kill the Cutter. Yes, I assumed it would die.
    • Thirdly I was fairly sure there was a ninja on that flank somewhere by the little building, so wasn't convinced I could pull back far enough to escape anyway. Ion retrospect I might have been able to, at least with careful deployment of drop bears.

    I admit I undervalued this point, being used to the old Decapitation.

    I admit I undervalued this point, being used to the old Decapitation. My other reasons are mentioned above.

    I WAS quite ambitious, trying to take out Sun Tze that turn. I wanted to seal the game, but in retrospect should perhaps have played conservatively and just finished de-fanging the list instead. I had an advantage in the fight with Luna, and didn't think she'd reveal if I stayed in cover rather than moving after Sun Tze. After taking damage my next order should have been to cover my Monstrucker's approach with the Seraph's silhouette just in case, since at that point I still had the orders to fix it and retreat.

    It is very much like bad TAG play, although in this instance it was largely calculated. It might still have been bad, but I THINK my cutter run was worth it for the disruption it caused.

    Thank you, I appreciate that.




    My list was a bizarre but competitive one, with an experimental spec-ops thrown in. I believe Vaulsc's had several experimental elements, but definitely had a familiar core.
     
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  5. Sedral

    Sedral Jīnshān Task Force Officier

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    I can't have enough of the picture of the cutter, the ninja and sun tze engaged in melee with wounds token all over the place. It's hilarious :joy:
     
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  6. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    Your list hits all my timmy needs so I am going to run it just to play with it. I suspect
    This will play much like an Avatar list. High first strike damage but if it gets answered the list can fail hard.
     
  7. Hexa

    Hexa TAG pilot

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    Yes, exactly. If you can be bothered letting me know how it goes I'd be interested. A couple of tips on it:

    For non-specops I take a normal fusilier and upgrade Joan's sword. The fusilier isn't only a cheerleader, an unhackable combi is occasionally exactly what I need.

    The list's best defence is the enermy not knowing where the cutter is. I can use the monstrucker's deployment to manipulate what my opponent thinks sometimes, if I'm willing to have it slightly out of position.

    I usually hidden deploy the cutter and have the Seraph as my reserve.

    It's possible to make an identical looking list which swaps the cutter and fusilier for a Swiss and a Sepulchre.....
     
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  8. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the tips. Any recommended missions to get the best use out of the list?
    I know most people hate the very concept but I am a big fan of using other peoples lists to try and get a glimpse into what that person was thinking.
     
  9. Vaulsc

    Vaulsc Well-Known Member

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    FYI if you like that PanO list here is an earlier version of it in action (spoiler alert: PanO wins in this one)

     
    Andre82 likes this.
  10. Hexa

    Hexa TAG pilot

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    It's actually fairly versatile, it can do basically any mission which doesn't have a massive number of objectives (I'd be hesitant to use it at six objectives) or a heavy focus on Classifieds. What it's good at though is zone control, followed by assassination (taking out a specific target: Designated Target, Datatracker...), and army points advantage if if you're cautious. It struggles with Objective Rooms because they reduce the long range shots available and TAGs can't fit inside, but can manage reasonably with Joan and the monstrucker going inside. Off the top of my head it's good at Quadrant Control, Unmasking, Biotechvore (some of your cheerleaders may die but they're not worth much, and your opponent isn't likely to be able to get to safety AND counter two TAGs), and decapitation if there aren't safe building interiors for the enemy lieutenant to hide in.

    It can struggle from having so many points tied up in HMGs, but I can often counter this by using the mobility of TAGs to do things like climb onto buildings and shoot over enemy cover. S7 can vault most things, and while at the top of that vault it's sometimes possible to see onto rooftops, over barricades, etc.: even more so with 6" of super-jump as well. Otherwise it can be worth just watching the table with the TAGs and spending a turn sprinting the fusilier (or maybe Monstrucker) across the table to trade with some specific target like a hacker or MSV.
     
  11. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    So I ran this list tonight on the mission Show Of Force.
    I would have run it sooner but we kept running transition matrix and that was not happening with this list.
    My opponent was running Hassassin B of all the random bloody factions.

    I rolled a 4 on the LT roll and he crit with a 14, He took first turn.
    He deployed a linkteam of Govads with HMG and missile launcher back in his deployment zone, and two impersonation markers on each side of my deployment zone.
    I spread out a bit thin wanting to make it order intensive for the fidays to go cheerleader hunting. I tried to bait him out a little bit with Joan over on the far left away from my cheerleaders and with the potential of pushing up on that side if he just ignored her.
    This worked very well as he deployed a third impersonation marker right next to his one closest to my LT.

    My reserve was the Seraph. I really only had one place I could put it if I wanted full cover from his linkteam and did not want to be close to one of his impersonation markers. This however allowed him to run a Mutt up to the building the Seraph was hiding behind and then pop around the corner. I wish I deployed my Helot a bit better here to defend the Seraph but even then he could have still pulled this off at the cost a one order for smoke.
    I had a choice here. I could dodge or Nanopulse. I needed to kill the mutt, and had an enginere not that far away. I failed the BTS roll putting me into EM2 and also failed to kill the mutt, but the mutt did get flashpulsed stopping it's run.

    Using my LT as a soft bait worked well, maybe I should have thought about that a bit better... He moved Al-Djabel into CC and surprised attacked dealing a crit. I missed taking a ARO with the monstrucker here and would really kick myself for it. Next he moved his other Fiday into CC and would win the face to face inflicting another wound but would die to SMG fire. He thought about it for a second and then we pretty much flipped a coin, I would spend my first turn in LoL.

    From here he shuffled his link team around a bit. I had the option of taking a shot at his ML pretty safely with my hidden Cutter but being in LoL I was not convinced exposing the Cutter was the right play. In hindsight I probably really should have taken the shot.

    From here I tried to salvage as much as I could. but it was a mess and I kept making bad plays. The game would end with me suicide running onto the objective trying to shoot his two models off with the Cutter but dying.

    Fun list to play and we both agreed that between my mistakes and maybe the table setup that it was not a accurate showing of the list, We are going to play another game in a day or two and see if I can do better.
    I debated not even posting about this battle as I played it so poorly but I thought what the hell.
     
  12. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    @Hexa loved the battrep and loved your list. Sure you don't want to run that against speculo killer, Oniwaban or some crazy hacking network but it has great potential and most important ... very fun to play. :-)

    You need to run the Pacific Rim music during your turn.
     
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