Everything in Infinity is simultaneous, except for when it isn't. If you want to go by a strict reading, if you fire a shotgun template on your way into base contact then it would also hit you, but it doesn't.
So it's justifiable that you can use MA under this same statement. Also you could avoid being effected by the template technically speaking, however I could see you saying you cant template into close combat so your shotgun would have to be AP. You calculate MODs all at once. Where you shoot from in relation to the opponent, whether they reach base, reach smoke, ect... it all is calculated at once and doesn't isolate you at a specific point for the entire order. Range/LOF mods are specific to picking a place for BS Attack range bands and cover, it has nothing to do with other mods. Implying that it does means when you shoot a model, and they go unconscious, they should be placed unconscious where the opponent shot the not where they ended their movement. The mechanics of the game support everything about using MA by reaching base to base.
Sure, yeah... If you're using a CC attack. "Each Level of Martial Arts gives a series of specific MODs and advantages to CC, as shown in the Martial Arts Chart." It doesn't say it grants MODs and advantages to BS, just CC.
I have not said you get a + to your BS stat, this discussion has never been about getting the "advantages" to your BS attack it's about impose a negative on your opponent. . All MODS have clearly been stated to effect CC except for the NEGATIVE MOD you impose on your opponent which is applied to all face to face rolls.
I would like to chime in again to remind everyone that both readings of CC Special Skill applicability conditions are flawed and ideally should be FAQ'd, even if we are talking about using RAW "as is".
Then we come back again at the argument that I can shotgun you and apply MA because we are "reaching" the engaged state. I repeat, I don't think that's the way they intended it but the rules aren't clear. And I think we'll all agree this needs FAQing.
Let's resume the raw : So to use martial art or ikhol, you have to be in base to base contact or be in base to base contact after moving (this is the meaning of reach, from the dictionnary: reach = arrive, reach is about being in your destination not moving there) => RAW are clear, just need to understand the exact wording As soon as you are in base to base contact, you are considered as "in CC" and you can't shoot. If someone move in base contact with you and you want to ORA BS attack, you can shoot him before he reach CC (supposing you have LOF). => seems clear If your first action was to move into base to base contact, the only way to shoot with your second action is to do it at a point of your movement before you reach base to base contact so before you fulfill the requirement to use I-khol or MA. So no I-khol or MA modifiers to your BS attack. => seems clear too Now, please explain me what is flawed here and need to be rewritten/FAQed If you reach CC, you are in CC (no possible debate, that's what the word mean) so no BS attack. If you want BS attack, you have to do it before reaching CC so no MA/Ikhol We don't need FAQ. At worst, we need an anglish dictionnary. Evrything we need is written, we just need to understand the wording without approximations
There is no such state as "being engaged in Close Combat". In this form it is defined nowhere. The only game term in the sentence is "Close Combat", which is an Attribute and thus it cannot be meaningfully used as such in the context. "Engaged" is not capitalized therefore it may or may not refer to Engaged state. "...so a trooper must be in base to base contact with an enemy in order to use them" is wording that suggests a single necessary condition, not a sufficient one, nevermind that it also reads as detalization of previously delivered rule rather than an independent rule. But the biggest and most important reason is because of reports from competent people claiming that being in base contact was never intended to be a sufficient condition to use CC Special Skills, therefore it probably will be FAQ'd regardless of what we can make out of RAW right now, purely on the grounds of this argument re-occuring every couple of months and one of the common interpretations supposedly not matching design goals of the rule. I personally would love competent CC troops getting more leverage from their abilities, but I fully expect this take on rules to not survive 1.4 (or whatever it's going to be).
I agree, "being engaged in Close Combat" is not written anywhere (check the wiki quote in my previous post). It's written being in base to base contact (or reach it, which mean roughly the same) which cause you to be "Engaged" which cause you to "be in close combat". Being engaged in close combat is just a player-made bundle of these 3 steps, not RAW. You've got no choice there, RAW use the term Engaged state (read the Engaged wiki page, it's everywhere). Everywhere else, RAW speak about being in CC (which you can only do by being engaged which you can only do by being in base to base contact) or be in base to base contact (which cause engaged state which cause being in CC) You have one only requirement to do something. You fulfill it, you can do the thing. You don't fulfill it, you can't do the thing. How does it bring any form of doubt ? There we leave the world of rules interpretation and enter the word of opinions. Time will show who is right on this subject but I, personnaly, don't see any need for FAQ
@Barrogh The state Engaged versus engaged doesn't really matter. Merely engaging an enemy model means you are by definition in Engaged state. The two can logically be used interchangeably. @Arkhos94 you can declare skills at any point in your movement, the sticking stones are (i.e. where I see the "other side's" arguments to hold water); 1. Do you have to declare all skills at that point (we know you can't split your burst over several points)? 2. Should CC Special Skills be read to only work when declaring a CC Attack the way the rules so strongly suggests but does not point out? It needs plugging through FAQ. In the meanwhile I'll stick to the reading that CC Special Skills require you to also declare a CC Attack. Naturally, this particular answer to number 2 would render any answer to number 1 academic.
@Arkhos94 My take that taking "engaged" (with lack of capitalization possibly being a specific indication that this in not a game term and just an English expression) as "Engaged" is no better than reading "in close combat" as an attempt to express that you must declare a CC Attack. The latter one still requires you to be Engaged, but it would suggest that the latter is actually not a sufficient requirement, if necessary one. That's exactly what creates a doubt. We are not given a single precisely and infallibly formulated requirement, and the only blunt and straightforward piece of info we get (that cannot be undermined by suggesting that game states or declarations are not referenced correctly one way or another) is worded as "...so that means this and that", which suggests it's possibly not a pre-requisite given to us, but an inference from actual rules which writers made for us so we don't have to... From rules that we can interpret in two different ways by suggesting one writing mistake or another, which both would make that inference correct (because both being simply Engaged and further requiring declaring CC Attack on top of that means base contact). Like I said, I personally feel that your interpretation is closer to RAW than suggesting we must declare CC Attack (because a single capitalization would settle that, and that is more likely to be an editing oversight than completely rephrasing that sentece to make "CC Attack" interpretation into doubtlessly correct one), but my personal feeling are beside the point here.
a lot of you guys are trying to say how it should be. the point is that the requirement for using the CC special skill is that you END UP in cc or started in cc. if you end up in CC it does not restrict you to which type of attack you can use and simply tells you that any of the positive mods will only apply to CC attacks while the negative mods apply to any ftf roll done by the target. thats what the rules say. so far there has been a lot of "this is what is intended" and frankly I have supported rulings that were "intention" based but in this case I can't simply because gun kata is cool and flavourful and does not hurt the game like jumping your remotes off of buildings to get secret missions.
@jackfrost The problem is that a state of "being in CC" is not defined anywhere. So we have to pick between two flawed interpretations of the text or agree to use what is stated to be an intention - repeatedly.
Yes it is. Being in CC is defined is defined in the wiki and the exact wiki quote are in the previous message I will even put it here again : Being in CC is defined as being engaged. Being engaged is define as being in base to base contact. Add the two and you reach "being in CC is being in base to base contact" The rest is basic structure of an order. When you use any skill after a movement (only case when you can be out of CC and in CC during one order), you have to declare when during the movement you use that skill : If you declare it when you are in CC (being in CC after moving = reach, if you have doubt please check a dictionnary), you can only use dodge or CC skills (second effect bullet point) => MA and other could be applied If you declare it before you are in CC, you can not use any CC skill. That's the only way to shoot someone=> at this point you are not in CC so using CC skill like MA is illegal The only true question left at this point is : does dodge allow the use of MA or others ? Dodge can be used while in CC so at a moment when MA (and others) are legal. All examples regarding MA make reference to CC attack => no dodge Same for Protheion => no dodge I-Khol wiki page says "i-Kohl can be used even when declaring Dodge or Engage." so you can use it with dodge For those who still harbor some doubt, here is the oxford dictionary definition of reach : reach : Arrive at; get as far as. ‘‘Goodbye,’ she said as they reached the door’ ‘the show is due to reach our screens early next year’ So yes, reach base to base mean you are in CC. So MA and others allowed but no BS attack
Your argument is flawed to start with because a trooper doesn't have to USE martial arts (automatic skill) during any point of its order structure. And if you feel that it does then a trooper could USE MA during the "Move" order as he REACHES B2B and fits all the requirements.
so if you reach base to base you cannot use a BS attack at all? you just created a situation where if you move into engage a model you cannot shoot it on the way in. is that what you meant to do?
http://infinitythewiki.com/en/I-Kohl#i-Kohl_example_3 "Once they come into base to base contact, if Azra reacts by declaring CC Attack or Dodge she will be able to implement her i-Kohl during the Face to Face Roll, but not if she declares a BS Attack." Because, y'know, it's a CC Special Skill.
Isn't that because I-khol says specifically what skills you can use it with. Because, y'know it doesn't say anything about CC Special Skills.
