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Normal Rolls or Face-to-Face Rolls?

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by n21lv, Aug 29, 2019.

  1. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    I apologise for these dumb questions, but sometimes I really don't understand how to determine whether rolls are Normal Rolls or Face-to-Face Rolls.

    1. Is Forward Observer vs BS Attack ARO a Face-to-Face roll and why?
    2. Is BS Attack vs Jammer BS Attack ARO a Face-to-Face roll and why?
    3. Is Spotlight program vs Redrum program a Face-to-Face roll and why?

    My thinking was always that if both skill declarations can be successful at the same time, then rolls are Normal. But if one skill declaration can only be successful if another skill declaration fails, then rolls are Face-to-Face. I really hope this gets more clear in N4, but until we're not there, I'd like to have a primer on determining whether rolls are Face-to-Face or Normal.
     
  2. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    Are the two troopers attempting to enact a status change on each other (literally are they attempting to affect the other trooper)? if yes, then you have a face to face.
    Is one of the troopers using a skill that specifically enforces a face to face vs. certain attacks and is the other using that specific attack? If yes, then you have a face to face.

    so:
    1. Face to Face, because FO is attempting to place the other trooper into the targeted state while BS Attack is attempting to place the other trooper into the unconscious state.
    2. Face to Face, because Jammer is attempting to place the other trooper into the Isolated state while BS Attack is attempting to place the other trooper into the unconscious state.
    3. Face to Face, because Spotlight is attempting to place the other trooper into the targeted state while Redrum is attempting to place the other trooper into the unconscious state.
     
  3. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    Yes. Trooper A is effecting Trooper B and Trooper B is effecting Trooper A

    Yes. Trooper A is effecting Trooper B and Trooper B is effecting Trooper A

    Yes. Trooper A is effecting Trooper B and Trooper B is effecting Trooper A
     
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  4. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    If so, why Discover vs BS Attack is not a Face-to-Face roll?
    EDIT: dumb question, Discover itself states that it's a Normal roll.
     
  5. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    There are a handful of exceptions like Dodge and Reset, but they're usually explicitly stated in the rules of those actions.
     
  6. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    Discover cancels an existing state, it doesn't put the other trooper into a new state.
     
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  7. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Also, if the target of Discover has Declared BS Attack that means they're no longer in a marker state so the Discover will have no effect.

    No effect, no F2F.
     
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  8. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    So, basically, the determining factor in a Face-to-Face roll is that both participants are targeting each other?
     
  9. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Affecting each other.

    Are they causing a change in state, a loss of wounds, or otherwise making an attempt to modify the in-game condition of the target.
     
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  10. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    Is this captured in any rule? I'm not arguing, just trying to understand where I was wrong.
     
  11. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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  12. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    I'm asking specifically about the quoted part of @colbrook's comment. That text in the red was actually the thing that got me thinking it works the way I described in the OP.
     
  13. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    It's pretty much a summation of all the examples on all the rules and FAQs rather than a direct rules quote.
     
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  14. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    Thanks everyone, I think I finally have a proper understanding of this.

    I'd really like N4 to describe all this in a much clearer way than 'affecting each other'. As per my original undestanding, I didn't think that placing an enemy into Targeted state prevents them from shooting you in response (as stated in the 'If either action does not affect the outcome of the other' part).
     
  15. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    This is the best way I remember it.

    If the action is trying to force/change a state on the other model (affecting it) then it's going to be face to face if the other model returns the favour.
     
  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    That would be nice. This language can get tricky though.
     
  17. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    I would really like it if they put this shorthand players have invented actually definitively, explicitly, and clearly in the rules in N4. It's quite fuzzy the way it is written right now.
     
  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Because effecting a state change doesn't sufficiently describe all possible ways of affecting another trooper.
     
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  19. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    Well, if you just list all possible interactions between two troopers and categorise them, I think you will have something like this:
    - a skill that causes a State change
    - a skill that causes the Trooper to suffer a loss of W/STR point
    - everything else that is explicitly labelled as a FtF skill (as I suggested in the N4 discussions & suggestions topic).

    Doesn't look all that difficult to me.
     
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  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but Nimbus or Smoke that is touching the enemy would qualify for Face to Face.
     
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