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Impetuous Moves, part 532

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Vanderbane, Aug 27, 2019.

  1. Vanderbane

    Vanderbane Well-Known Member

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    Here’s the scenario: Beginning of turn two. During turn one, Scarface killed some dudes, and frenzy activates (he now has an impetuous order). Scarface is ~2 inches from the door to the Armoury. Just inside around the corner is a very nervous fusilier.

    Option 1: Scarface moves toward the door, and stops b/c he can’t fit when he contacts the door. Probably draws LoF to the fusilier, and then presumably riddles him full of holes.

    Option 2: Joe dismounts scarface, and moves into base contact with the fusilier.

    Now, based on the previous discussion of this topic, my read of this situation is that scarface _cannot_ dismount, b/c he can get there in the same number of orders by staying mounted. He can only do something other than move (like jump or climb) if it gets him there _faster_ in orders terms). And that this would be true for any situation where the model would be forced to stop (difficult terrain and doors being the obvious ones).

    Does this sound right to everyone else? Or does someone want to argue that Joe gets out and go machete-ing?

    OR

    Option 3: Scarface must go prone, and crawl into base contact with that fusilier...
     
  2. Gunmage

    Gunmage General Contact Unit

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    TAGs can't go prone. That means Scarface can't get inside armoury without dismounting, period - and that means that yes, he'll have to dismount, UNLESS the door to the armory is farther than his dismounted move value, in which case he'll be able to get closer to the fusilier by not dismounting.
     
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  3. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Well, it's certainly not option 3. TAGs can't go prone.
     
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  4. Vanderbane

    Vanderbane Well-Known Member

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    You would think that putting something in a post script and with an ellipsis would indicate sarcasm. Apparently you would be wrong...

    Dang, tried it again. Point is that _of course_ it can't go prone because it's a TAG. Also because... _you can't go prone during an impetuous move_. We've discussed this, I'm sure. Fury even does crazy things like stand you up from prone so you can climb or jump when appropriate. But we'll deal with what happens when McMurrough is outside the room later.

    As to the suggestion that Joe must dismount, I'm not sure about that. Here's why: The requirement in Fury is that your move toward the nearest enemy in terms of number of orders by the most direct path possible. In cases where the number of orders are the same (as in this case) and the distance is as best you can tell the same (as in this case), there's no other choice but to choose one of the available options. Unless we're arguing that you have to choose the "worst" version of the move in this case (which I guess is a possibility but I'm not sure how we'd define that) I would think it would be at the discretion of the player using the order - mainly b/c I don't know how else it would work.
     
  5. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    But because the TAG can't enter the building and "reach" the enemy, it is - by definition - not the most direct route. I say he would dismount as that is the only way to get to the enemy. Impetuous movement doesn't stop just because you can shoot someone, you are trying to reach base contact and the number of orders to do that should be what you are counting. The only possibility of staying in the TAG is if you were exactly the first move value away from the doorway.

    Now, seeing as you can't actually measure that before hand...
     
  6. Vanderbane

    Vanderbane Well-Known Member

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    Well, sure, the TAG can't enter the room. But that is always true, whether Scarface is across the board or right next to the room. Let's say Scarface is 16 inches from the room instead of two and the fusilier inside is still the closest target. I think we'll agree that Joe wouldn't dismount from across the table, even though he has to dismount to enter. He'd move towards the room until he _has_ to dismount to proceed to the target.

    The problem is (as you point out) we're measuring our move in terms of distance per order. In the case described there's no debate that both approaches arrive at base contact within a single order. That is to say, whether Joe dismounts in the first move or in the second move he would get him into base contact within a single order. So it seems to me that you are adding another stipulation which I don't see in the rules, which is that we parse distance on a short skill basis instead of an order basis.

    Now, I'd agree that if it appears that the fusilier is a bit more than 5 inches from the doorway (1 inch for the dismount, plus 4 for the second move), Joe would have to dismount early as it would increase the distance covered (and thereby potentially shorten the number of orders from 2 to 1).
     
  7. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    You can’t Mount or Dismount during the second Move of an Order, only during the first. So Joe will be getting out.

    Q: When can you Mount or Dismount a troop?
    A: When declaring Move as the first Short Skill of an Order, at the beginning of its movement, a troop can Mount or Dismount.
     
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  8. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    I can't help but think that dismounting during impetuous order is very complicated to figure out.

    I have no authority over the rule, neither do I pretend it's the right way to play it, but I fell it would much safer to say you can't mount / dismount during impetuous order. That way, both player can more easily know what to expect from impetuous order.
    (the guys that is crazy enough to rush into the open shouldn't be cold headed enough to run toward his bike, opposite of the ennemy, because it will get him faster to hit them in close combat ...)

    @ijw : is there a reason why its wasn't written that way in the first place which I fail to understand ?
     
  9. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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  10. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    That only could work IF Scarface was not a TAG AND you were using the Gate markers rules (narrow gate, cargo gate, etc...), which has nothing to do with the size in cm/inches of the base, but only with the Silhouette.

    I frigging hope they remove the gate rules from the standard rulebook, seems like every three months or so someone comes to the forum asking about it xD
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I, on the other hand, hope they make it non-optional and part of the intended design. Access width is one of the best rules of the game as it removes the extreme subjectivity of doors from the equation (did you know that for a lot of commercially available buildings, S2 models can't actually fit through any of the doors?).

    I don't see how generating questions is a sign something should go away. AROs generate a LOT more questions, same with rolling dice.
     
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  12. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Then apply it to all doors and windows, instead of only a few. And be cathegorical in that it only applies to "doors" and "windows" (not alleys or similar, not-enclosed positions), and place it as part of the "basic rules".

    As it is now, at the end of the rulebook, with a niche use... but part of something as basic as Move!
     
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  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Indeed! The rules need a basic universal guideline for terrain, and then an optional section towards the end with creative ideas. It is the most impactful part of a strategic game and is the most important aspect for each tournament to get as close to the intended/tested balance as possible. But that's for the N4 threads :)
     
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  14. Vanderbane

    Vanderbane Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough. So now it's a question of how far from the building you are. If it looks to be in that less that 9 inches from the building (regardless of position of the enemy inside) sweet spot you get out. Seem right?

    Of course, the other way around this is I declare dodge first, then move (which looks legal according to fury), and then he gets to stay in?? That seems unintended.


    • As shown by the Chart, the order in which the Skills are declared is irrelevant (Move can be declared first or second).


    Doesn't even work then. You categorically cannot move prone while impetuous. This means that McMurrough (and equivalents) can never enter through that gate, and therefore should never impetuous towards a target in a room.

    Very much agreed we need standard access definitions, for things like this and ramps (which almost never show up). Windows in particular need some way of knowing if I can vault out of a normal sized window when the silhouette would clip while "standing" on the sill on the way out.
     
  15. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    The answer to these questions should always be "what would get me closer to the nearest model". If you're less than 4" from a narrow gate or access scenery item this will involve leaving the TAG.

    If you don't want a Furious Joe to leap out his TAG to go mano-a-mano with the ninja in the objective cancel his Impetuous Order.
     
  16. Vanderbane

    Vanderbane Well-Known Member

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    This answer to "what gets me closer" gets complicated (and I don’t see that requirement in fury - I see a requirement to move by the most direct path in the fewest orders, which is different). This complication is kinda my point. I’m required to move or or jump or climb, that’s mandatory. But I have various options that seem legal depending on the total distance to the door and the order in which I declare things. @ijw pointed out the “can’t dismount in the second half of the order” part which makes things wacky. So here’s what I see.

    Outside of 9 inches: he stays mounted, and declares a legal combination of skills.

    Inside 9 but outside 4: Option A: Dismount and move 4 inches, then either move/activate/attack/dodge/idle. Option B: Dodge/Activate/Attack/Idle and then move as far as you can (up to 6 inches) mounted. Both of these are legal combinations of skills.

    Inside 4 inches: To my eye, the same as the “Inside 9 but outside 4.” I’m not sure why it would change.

    Looks to me like Option A and B are both legal moves inside of 9 inches. I don’t know why I’d be required as part of the rules to choose one over the other, so I think the player controlling Joe gets to choose.


    Four notes:

    The inside 9 but outside 4 category is particularly interesting, b/c by staying in the TAG I _do_ end the order closer to the target in most scenarios.

    It is always legal to declare my skills in whatever order you please as long as I follow the legal combination of skills. Using move as the second skill is specifically called out in Fury as acceptable. It just happens that if I declare the idle/dodge/attack/activate first, then the _dismount_ rule is what keeps me from entering the room, not the impetuous rule.

    Anything else and we’re back to “you have to do the thing in the order that is most disadvantageous” which, again, is not what the rule says. It says you are constrained to these options.

    Unlike with Jump or Climb, dismount does not have a call out to specifically require its use to close the distance when you cannot otherwise move. Perhaps it should, but it doesn’t.
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    It's fairly simple in practice, you and your opponent judge distance as best you can and try and come to an agreement whether Joe should need to get out this order or the next order. You should be well equipped to determine whether it is 8" +/- 2" even if you're fairly terrible at range estimates and together you should be able to narrow it down - especially for a door to an objective room that is 8"x8"

    Just remember that you need to be able to get through the door, not just close enough to touch.
     
  18. Vanderbane

    Vanderbane Well-Known Member

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    @Mahtamori Insofar as you choose to move as your first short skill, this seems correct to me. But that’s not what I’m talking about now that @ijw refreshed me on the dismount FAQ.

    My question at this point is basically does Fury require you to choose Move as your first short skill in these cases? Because as I read the rule, you are explicitly allowed to perform the skills in whatever sequence you prefer as long as they are from the legal combination list. The only carve out is that if you _cannot_ move and/or could get there faster (in terms of Orders) by Jumping or Climbing, you have to do so.

    As a result, if I choose to idle/activate/dodge/attack as my first skill, then I cannot dismount due to the dismount requirement that it can only happen during a move in the first short skill. I don’t see a rules reason that this isn’t a legal play. This strikes me as an unintended consequence of these two rules following the dismount revision.

    Possible fixes are 1) you have to move first during Impetuous Orders, 2) Dismount can happen at the start of any move skill, or 3) Add a carve out for dismounting like the one for Climb and Jump. But as it stands, I read it as you can’t really force someone to get out of their TAG or off their bike, which again, seems like something that needs to be addressed.
     
  19. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Bingo!

    Idling first to avoid dismounting definitely seems like an unintended loophole, the purpose of the Impetuous rule is to force movement towards the enemy (and was made even more restrictive in N2>N3 transition).

    Now we're my getting into RAW vs RAI here (and there's the old saying about opinions and derrieres), but avoiding an Impetuous move by declaring a different skill first definitely feels very strongly against the intention of the rule to me.
     
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  20. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    Yes you can potentially declare a different Skill first, but don’t forget that you can’t bypass:
    • When a trooper declares Move as part of an Impetuous Order, he always moves the entirety of his corresponding MOVvalue.
    If you need to Dismount to do that, you will have to Dismount, which means that you will have to declare Move first.

    Being able to declare the Skills in any sequence is for when it makes no difference which you declare first.
     
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