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Aleph in N4

Discussion in 'ALEPH' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. natetehaggresar

    natetehaggresar Senior Backlogged Painter Manager

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    I'm curious why you don't think shooting through marker state is good.

    As is auto discover really sucks in ARO especially, as you use your awesome perk to discover then suffer normal shots for daring to use your incredibly expensive gear, that really defines your 70-80 point unit.

    In my opinion shooting through camo seems appropriate. I do think some of the old msv 3 shenanigans is too much, like revealing hd and all camo in LoF, but reverting to shoot through camo IMO seems like a fairer middle ground, even if point costs need to shift a bit.

    As is you're also probably going to be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks camo isn't really powerful, even if msv 3 discovered it, or that thinks camo is very expensive....
     
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  2. Penemue

    Penemue Watcher
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    I think shooting through marker state is too good / creates exceptions that don't exist in the game.
     
  3. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    How about if MSV3 could also see through White Noise? That would make it worth more than MSV2 and add utility beyond negating camo.
     
  4. natetehaggresar

    natetehaggresar Senior Backlogged Painter Manager

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    I'd beg to differ,

    Intuitive attack already goes through marker state, as do templates that already hit some other legal target, and stat lock which is rarely used. As does discover + shoot (conditionally and at an extra order cost).

    MSV 3 shooting through camo removes that extra order cost, and the opportunity cost in ARO, that makes actually using MSV 3 prohibitive.

    By definition any extra effect MSV3 has over MSV2 is an extra effect that's not already in the game. We could also just remove MSV3 and make it MSV2 for... For simplicity's sake of course.
     
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  5. Penemue

    Penemue Watcher
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    I suppose, but Intuitive comes at a cost and requires a long skill / roll. MSV3 would circumvent all of that. Unless MSV3 would take a long skill to shoot "through" Camo? (a la Marksmanship X?)
     
  6. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    I had the same thought about targeting a Marker as a long skill but that's how it effectively works already with (auto) Discover+Shoot.
     
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  7. Penemue

    Penemue Watcher
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    Fair. I don't think it should / needs to be better than that, though. Perhaps cheaper?

    My Charontid MSV3 (effectively bigger Asura) already feels beastly enough as he's running around the table, stomping Camo.
     
  8. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Or different, an MSV2 can do 95%+ of what MSV3 tends to get used for, that's why I suggested not being affected by White Noise above, it gives a unique ability.
     
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  9. Grafa

    Grafa New Member

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    Just some wishes:

    1)Hector....strategos lvl 2-3 or bs 14(or both) will be very good. 'Cause now he is little bit expensive.
    2) msv3 could be reworked. Mb some interesting things? Like autodiscover several markers in los for one order. Or impose -3 mod to all mimetism/camo/to/odd troops who target owner(like full auto) Or shooting throught total cover:grinning:
    3) penthesilea....needs something to be useful. Can be specialist for example. Or mov 6-4 when dismounted, smoke or total immunity will be nice too.
     
    #69 Grafa, Aug 15, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2019
  10. Solodice

    Solodice Freshly Squeezed Troll

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    Eh, I'm not shedding tears for the strongest skill in the game which is being in a marker state. Then there are forces that really push it to some annoying levels like Ariadna (you have TAG shock and then there's also full camo Ariadna shock). The MSV3 getting back its ability to shoot at a camo marker wouldn't really swing things against camo troops as it's only on 3, to moderate to very expensive, units in the game and I didn't see any grinding of teeth in N2 when it came to the MSV3.

    As of right now the MSV3 is an order sink that costs to much and it really isn't all that special (auto discover is super meh).

    In N2 the Asuras felt like tip of the spear supersoldiers. I don't get that felling with them in N3 because the utility of the MSV3 was neutered and their price point isn't really justified anymore because of that. Unlucky for my opponents as that means Achilles is coming out to play because I can live with his price tag for what he brings to the table.
     
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  11. RolandTHTG

    RolandTHTG Still wandering through the Night

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    I think there's some issues with the Strategos skill. It's a non-hidden skill, and is currently only on leiutenant profiles, which means that my courtesy list reveals the leiutenant even before I decide to use the skill! Is there some way this could be hidden if I don't decide to use it during deployment/start of first turn?

    This compounds something I noticed with the Shukra. Since he trades Chain of Command for Strategos lvl 1 on the leiutenant profile, he loses the ability to become a specialist on some missions. Is this intentional, or should Strategos also grant the specialist ability on some missions.
     
  12. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Those are both things working as intended really, breaking the 10 order limit on a combat group has downsides.
     
  13. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    The shukra is a special case. When the opponent sees a shukra, he knows outright if it is a Lt (strategos) or a CoC. I think this is intended, since the shukra is a cheap strategos 1 Lt or CoC with counterintelligence, that is: the perfect lieutenant/CoC you would like to take and hide somewhere. There is a need for that sort of weakness.
    As a matter of fact, you do not want to use it as a specialist. You want to keep it hidden and safe, not running through the board (unless it's turn 3, but even then, if you have to use the shukra it means you probably don't have much left, and thus have too few orders to do anything).
    If you need a backup specialist for turn 3 rush, use a daleth or a dakini paramedic. These are quite faster than the shukra (15/10), dakini has mimetism and was probably part of a fireteam so should be closer to the objective, daleth can do many many things and is useful at all stage of the game (remember daleth can triangulate fire, it's a good way of removing a pesky ODD/TO from afar).

    As for other strategos (Hector, Marut), these are powerful troops that would still use their Lt order even without strategos. On Hector, it allows him to use Lt order for his fireteam. On Marut, well, you need every order when fielding such an expensive miniature, and you need strategos 3 to maximise the marut efficiency anyway, since you'll be starved of everything.
     
  14. Mr. E

    Mr. E Hero for Hire

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    I'd love a reason to put the Asura on the table. I keep seeing requests for a light tag and can't help but feel this is the spot the Asura is meant to fill but doesn't.

    Same goes for the Mk3 and 4 proxies. I want a reason to field them. I like the Mk.4 as a roadblock, but it's rare that he's worth it, and the HMG just doesn't feel like it's ever worth the points. I also disagree with the idea that proxies don't cost enough. Their points, balanced through the army (and the amount of points you pay for a single order) is just fine. They're auto-include because we need the flexibility. If other things were capable of fighting for their spots, or the other proxies were worth taking, you'd stop seeing the Mk.2 and 5.

    Yadu fall into this category as well. They're very expensive, and I feel they need something to.differentiate them from just being very bland HI dressed as MI. A missile launcher profile would be sweet, but I liked the idea of riot stoppers. Someone else said something about "the public face of aleph" and while I disagree with the idea (O-12 is basically the same role) I wouldn't mind stealing their weapons.

    I'm also surprised I don't see the same people complaining about proxies with much to say about Dart. I kind of feel like the spot she occupies could have very well been a proxy (Mk.0?) and forced different choices, rather than being another cheap near auto-include.
     
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  15. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Personally, I prefer to keep limitations, and it's not like the White Noise is more widespread than Eclipse smoke... making the MSV3 discover more than one marker might be good, or allowing it to ignore any BS and Burst penalties aside from White Noise, Cover and Distance (so you would ignore Saturation Zones, and the Nimbus/Nimbus+ grenades).

    Say that to a 21pts Lt2 in camo state YJ has in Invencible AND in Vanilla... (I don't understand why it's on Vanilla, frankly); the Asura pays +2pts for that extra Lt order, having only the Yadu HMG NCO (cost: 2 Dakins HMG) and doesn't have the Lt2 option in vanilla Aleph...

    Give the Asura an NCO profile would actually have been better, then making the Lt2 one of the Devas. They are elite, veterans, and widely experienced (while the Asura are the Elite of the Elite, but less widely deployed)...

    Repeat that to the Alpha unit from O12 :p

    I'd say the Marut pays extra because, while the Strategos 1 is not directly used (same as the Avatar, frankly), there are other advantages, in this case the Posthuman Strategos (deploy 2-3 or even 4-5 models after the opponent's main deployment... unless you face another Strategos 3, that's usually Marut & Posthumans...).
     
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  16. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    Yup :)

    Well frankly the Marut does not really pay for strategos 3 - given the price difference between Lt and non Lt Marut ...
    But Strategos 3 is still a much needed skill on the Marut, because since this is such an expensive piece, it needs that sort of advantage, so that you should have a chance not to lose it on deployment (i mean: on your opponent's turn 1, before you can even play it, if you play second). Same thing for the Avatar indeed.
     
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  17. yoink101

    yoink101 Chandra SpecOps Complaint Department

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    I support the idea of allowing msv3 to shoot directly at camo. It sets it up as actually being better than msv2 in a substantial way. The fact that it only appears on a few ultra elite HI just means it should be amazing.

    I’d love to see Andromeda improved. I know I’m repeating some stuff that’s already been said, but she needs an adjustment. Her base it too big to be usable as is. Even inferior impersonation would do it (although according to her fluff she should be about as good as a Fiday). If she had a marker state, then I’d actually use her. Because she could get around her terrible base size. Another option would be giving her 6-4 move. A third possibility would be some kind of mix of sensor or sixth sense. Both make sense with her companion. The guard changes were good though. Thank you for that!
     
  18. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache

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    Errrrr...
    upload_2019-8-19_1-23-19.png
    What?

    4 points is about right, especially when you consider Marut gains almost nothing from L1 part of Strategos.
     
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  19. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    See that another way:
    would you really save 4 pts by taking the non Lt marut ?

    4 pts out of a 10 pts miniature would be expensive, but 4 pts out of a 120 pts mini is not. Plus, many TAG cost +1 SWC when Lt.

    So yeah, i still say that the Marut does not really pay for Strategos 3. It's a great tactical advantage for the marut, and an advantage which is so cheap there is no real reason not to take it.
     
  20. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache

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    Yes, but that doesn't mean Marut doesn't pay for it. There is a difference between these two claims. Daoying doesn't pay for its Lt2. Marut pays for Strategos, it's just so expensive that you always want to take it anyway.
     
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