TAGs should be better, full stop. However, what do we do to make them better that doesn't then throw the skew the entirely other way, which means we have ANOTHER thing to correct for?
No, because what were describing is purely defensive. No one is talking about forcing this hypothetical hacking resistance onto enemy hackers in the active turn or it doing shock + EXP. It should have almost zero effect on the game at large, only in these small ecosystems.
TAGs, what a sensitive matter. Even so, I think we got caught up in the TAG issue a little bit too much and forgot to approach our discussion about N4 from a broader perspective. As for me, I think TAGs could use some minor adjustments, but I definitely I don't want TAGs to become uber killing machines. For that, I can play 40k where competitiveness in an army is set by who has the killiest/stompiest/more expensive (points and real money wise) mecha/character.
honestly speaking past a certain point of investment i feel tactical awareness should almost be mandatory(obviously within reason) Also I'd say if anything unmanned tags should be the ones vulnerable to possesion, manned tags should be as close to analog as possible or basically supped up heavy infantry.
I think that if you fix crits you will fix TAGs (and all units paying a lot of points for amour) without any direct changes. But adding the ability for Defensive (and White) Hacking Devices to actually protect other units would also be great.
I hope Vanilla panO gets its own personality. I mean that with the appearence of O-12 Vanilla panO feels non-unique, its 0-12 without toys. Yeah, we do have some good unique units (swish, aquila...) And some extra BS points here and there, but as a whole O-12 has made vanilla panO a bit uninteresting. Sectorials feel nice, they all have their own flavour, but as i said its vanilla panO as a whole wich i think needs a rework, maybe more tag friendly, or even more shooty, i dont know, but something that makes it different and interesting
On this, I agree with you. Oo He never played Tohaa. He played MRRF last year as it was the army he chose as his reward for winning Interplanetario in 2017 with MO. Well, easier to reach than USA as it will be France. But things aren't clear for now if the big tournament in October will be a satellite or not. If I remember well, one Russian made the travel along some players from the Baltic countries this year. I don't think you can sum up Vanilla to only Nisse, Hexas, ORCs and Dragões. O-12 has just no Veteran N1, no stealthy heavy hitters, one large base squishy CoC... Plus the Razor is just a worse Croc Man. Ok, O-12 has smokes but only for two MSV2 units in their roster shooting at 12-13, even Yu Jing does better than this. It's not like they had our 5 units with MSV2 as an option or mandatory and one MSV3. They're more like Aleph or Nomads with a PanO vibe in their BS than anything else.
Why do people keep mentioning a faction having lots of MSV units. How many of these units are actually included in lists? Often 1 or 2. So having lots of MSV options doesn't really mean much. Generic Pano's big issue is that it does feel boring. And thats because all our units are trying to do the same thing. Win FtF rolls and thats about it. We got a lot of 1 dimensional units.
A lot of it is lack of understanding of force multiplication and looking at the game as a primarily additive experience. A TAG sitting under a Jammer net or with its close approach guarded by a helot camo marker is more than just its 140ish pts of effectiveness due to the way the units mutually support each other. Recognizing that is a core part of understanding any good list design and really getting the most out of this. The other approach is the additove where players just take units X Y or Z and do not understand or consider the wider context of their choices. Such players may understand the force multiplication of joan. Or an evo with lots of flash bots. But they probably dont grasp how difficult to deal with a properly supported and played TO Camo BS15 Fat1 MHMG is when it is an integral part of a list as opposed to "just the big gun" unit. For a basic example, the oft claimed ease of dealing with a TAG up close with a boarding shotgun or say an SMG is all well and good until that TAG is deployed and supported such that you have to fight it on its terms not your own (like if there is a camo helot protecting the approach to the TAG or the TAG is in Suppression fire). At that point, it really is good luck and you could spend an entire turn throwing chaff units at such a deployment and never break it.
To further put the above into context. Here is a libertos smg trying to fight a SF cutter under 8. My only real question is "how many Libertos do you want to lose?" Because odds are you will waste all your comparative units in such a situation and never touch the cutter. Alternatively. Just putting a single screen unit in front of the TAG like the helot can also drastically diminish your chances of success by forcing the attacker into bad fights before they get to the TAG itself. An essential 30/60 of achieving/failing for an order (no result is a win for the helot) will really cut into your resources.
^ this. A TAG list isn't a list where you replace a HI with a TAG (and cut corners to make it fit). It's a completely different animal. One is about infantry combat, second is about mechanized infantry and combined arms. To look at real world examples - you can attach a tank or IFV to an infantry platoon, but unless both components work together and support each other well, any competent enemy will make short work of both, defeating them in detail. Especially in urban warfare, which is what we actually play in this game.
Throwing libertos at TO SF TAG midfield ? What are you PanO so that you don't have hacking/smoke ? (pun intended, PanO don't even have Libertos)
lol what? Are you even following the discussion? maybe go back read a few pages and you will understand the context..... And just for clarity, yes I am saying that such a play is suicide for the Libertos. its others in the "TagsR'Bad MKay" crowd that think its an auto loss for the TAG.
yes, yes they do, where do you think the Jabs about me being the "TAGs are Ok" guy who thinks the Cutter is a damned good unit come from.
Yeah, Ghost_from_warp certainly has some misguided views on things like this – I remember he had some wacky posts in the O-12 thread as well. Bear in mind he also goes on to note some TAGs are "Killing machines" or "OK" Judging from other Russian lists and posts here I feel as though they have a very very very different meta than what I am used to. Their views and thoughts on the game differ so wildly from mine it's hard to find common ground on what is considered good in both parts of the world. Of course I can only speak for myself here.
to be honest, our meta got major influence from Spanish meta, we are not the only one with such ideas. And last (and only) time i played against usa player- he uses quite similar lists idea. My point is, one meta can be stronger than other. The only way to judge it - is by clashing them against each other.
Yeah, I don't know man. Just look at the evidence here. Most of us are from the U.S. with a few exceptions, and like everyone here is telling you, you have some type of radical idea one way or another. At the very least you have a different view on the game as the rest of us. Please note that I'm not telling you you're bad at the game or wrong. Just trying to recognize that at a very base theres a difference of philosophies at play here. At the same time I'm just asking you to maybe recognize this yourself. While I do enjoy a trans-continental challenge, chances are that's not going to happen.
There's no point in continuing the meta-showdown we're having here. There are fundamental differences that we aren't going to agree on. How about we shift the focus back to the original topic?
The problem is, for people unwilling to think "gee maybe its me" it will never be enough. it wasnt enough when TAGs got FAT1, it wasnt enough when TAGs got Scoring Pilots so they can participate in objectives. It will never be enough for some people.
