Yeah, the manipulation of the ARO mechanic exists in a couple of situations from my knowledge, which I'll list below. As far as the intent of its existence within the game, i do not know. However, i do know that it is utilized at high-level play in my meta. Examples that come to mind: -Stealth hacker, in a link of non-stealth units, targeting another hacker. -engagement on second move skill, by forcing an ARO changeface or reset with your first skill from OUT of LoF. -MSV2 troop in smoke within 8 inches of enemy. Using first order to trigger their changeface or reset, then second order to shoot them. This is very similar to the madtrap trick. Also I should clarify, i am wrong on using holo echo as part of the coordinated order, as they can be delayed against. Therefore coordinating an order would have to use a real troop to pull that off, though you could double bluff and use the real trooper and not the echo. My 2cents on the topic - the reality is that it exists, and is currently part of the game. Therefore, I feel it's better to introduce it to your local meta so you can at least learn how it works in a friendly environment, where you can coach each other through and grasp an awareness of which faction and what kind of situation can prelude to it. Rather than come to face it for the first time in a foreign/competitive environment which may result in a negative play experience as the blind-side could leave you with a negative perspective of the other meta. I also feel that at the end of the day, like the introduction of things that initially feel overpowered like the Dakini link or the Kamau, it's simply an evolution of the meta and basically a constant arms race.
This breaks a core mechanic of the game and trivializes AROs by deleting them from a game. There's a very big difference between "This Dakini/Kamau is a more effective ARO piece than those that came before it" and "This piece prevents 90% of models from actually making a useful ARO". One produces a similar game, one does not. One is very reminiscent of other systems where your opponent doesn't actually get to play the game on your turn and just picks up models and puts them back in their box. I do not think that's an avenue that we particularly want to go down. I wouldn't try to sweep that under the carpet of just an evolving game. Infinity is not a perfect rules set, many "dick moves" have existed and been introduced or removed due to CB not being particularly tight on proof reading their rules and being very slow to fix things. The reality is if we want a better game then it is on us to not do shit like sticking Engaging models to walls, Super Jump shooting things in the back from the front, or using the Xenotech to pull the same bullshit as the mad traps. You'll notice all of the above got removed eventually, even after some of them were introduced through FAQs in the first place. If something seems like a dick move, it probably is, you can just decide to be part of the solution and not do it. Your local meta's growth will probably be better off for it. You certainly could exploit every nasty exploit in the game that's come about by loosely written rules to get as much of an edge as you can to get some cheap wins but at the end of the day is that what you really want? Exploiting rules to get cheap wins? It's personally not what I want out of the game when I play, and certainly not at the expense of my opponent who I would prefer to continue enjoy playing the game.
@Triumph Overall, I agree - you have the right of it, I don't feel these tricks add to the game. I could knit pick your argument here and there but that would derail the discussion of how to utilize the Hsiens Harris.
I'm assuming you mean move up the board as much as possible to get into good range bands with the Multi Rifle before you engage with the Hsien? Is that correct?
I have an practice ITS mission coming up soon. Based on this thread this is what I came up for an ISS list with the Hsien Harris. ITS Rescue v2 ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 6 HSIEN MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, AP CCW. (0.5 | 60) ZHÀNYING (Fireteam: Haris, Sensor) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nimbus Grenades / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 27) ZHÀNYING Hacker (Hacking Device) Breaker Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 32) CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) GROUP 2 6 DAKINI Tacbot HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 21) CELESTIAL GUARD Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13) WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16) MAJOR LUNAH Viral Sniper / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 29) KǍNRÈN Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, MadTraps / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 28) NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29) 4.5 SWC | 298 Points Open in Infinity Army The idea here is to use the Kanren with Mad Traps to hold a spot mid field while the Hsien Harris can push up the board. I will hold back some Kuan Shi in the 5man Core. I will also get those B2 smoke grenades rolling. I got my favorite REM Weibing. 6-4 specialist with FO and a Sniffer. He can help with Sensor. Lunah. Not really sure how to use her. I started a thread for advice. With the Saturation Zone I can really take advantage of MML LX. Hopefully I can use the Ninja, Kanren and Haris to snatch up some Civs as the HMG, Lunah, and Weibing try and keep my DZ safe-ish. This list was my first choice but I felt pretty vulnerable with my LT option. That is a big soft spot of either of these lists. ITS Rescue v2 ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 6 HSIEN Lieutenant MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 60) ZHÀNYING (Fireteam: Haris, Sensor) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nimbus Grenades / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 27) ZHÀNYING Hacker (Hacking Device) Breaker Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 32) CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) GROUP 2 6 1 DAKINI Tacbot HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 21) WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16) CSU (Specialist Operative) Rifle + Light Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) MAJOR LUNAH Viral Sniper / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 29) KǍNRÈN Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, MadTraps / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 28) NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29) WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3) 4 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army
Lunah has a Viral Sniper and Mimetism vs the Pheasants MSV 1 and Free Agent, which comes in handy with all those Kuang Shi in CG 1. I suppose it depends on who you are facing. If your opponents tend to field ARO pieces with visual mods a lot, the pheasant looks better, but then again, the Hsien/Rui Shi + Nimbus are even better in that role, so you might as well take one of them instead. A few other things you might consider in your lists: - the Kanren Minelayer profile could help with your Sensor game and free up some additional points. - Weibing is somewhat redundant due to your Zhanying Sensor. You could get a Chaiyi instead who is more survivable in ARO with Mimetism and costs only half the points. - Xi Zuang combines FO and Mad Traps and also has a DTW, which help protect your DZ and thus your rather vulnerable LT. - With a CG LT you might want to get a Phaesant CoC. The Mad Traps profile bolsters your defense even more while the Red Fury can operate as a more autonomous killing piece in later turns. He can also swap freely into CG 1 once a Kuang Shi is dead.
I have been wondering what nimbus is good for. It just hit me as I was reading your post. Its a good counter for link teams or enhanced reaction REMS. Pretty cool. What else is it good for? I do need an FO for this mission. Thats why I have the weibing in there. Its hard to say on the markers. I could come accross them or not. I will have to deploy Luhna based on what im up against.
I think it's mainly there to counter high burst AROs, either from fireteams or total reaction/neurokinetics. It also specifically affects MSV units, so you'll get even better value against those targets. Generally, nimbus affects skills that need to draw a LoF through or into it, so that also covers things like Dodge and Discover. The idea behind using nimbus is to make sure the opponent gets a worse deal out of the engagement than you do, since it usually will affect both players. A way to mitigate the negatives completely on your end are template weapons since they don't require a roll. And considering Dodge is also affected by the negative Mod from Nimbus, this is a win-win for the active player. Another way around it is Triangulated Fire (Weibing, Crane, Zhanying), since it ignores all other MODs except the -3 imposed by the skill itself. So if you want to shoot a particularly difficult target (say, something with TO:Camo behind cover), you can throw Nimbus to bring the chance of success for their ARO down while shooting with a fixed -3 with triangulated fire.
Tohaa uses it as a mobile ODD (that affects MSV and Dodge rolls) for their cheap Heavy Flamethrowers. They have Ninbus+ Keep in mind that it doesn't do much against the enemy if they have same or higher Burst, unless it also helps you bring that Husong-like REM down to -12 MODs.
@Azuset I use the Hsue HMG when trying to break enemy ARO's - with bs14, b4/5(depending), msv2 - with nimbus or smoke he can usually clear a lane for you to advance through. Regarding your list. Run it, See how it goes. Though I feel you don't have enough REM's to justify the Zhangying hacker, i'd swap him for the madtraps, and the Kenran for the mine layer. But hey, if you listen to everyone's opinion you'll never settle on a list. So just run it! Lunah is fantastic. Use her with Nimbus. Always remember that Missile launchers are +3 up to 40 - so if you ever have a fireteam with missile launchers to get through deploy with that in mind. Good luck
For me the hacker is there to buff the Dakini HMG and present a threat to an agressive TAG OR HI. I dont have much in this list to take care of HI of a TAG. The 6-4 repeater and some zombies (kuang shi) will help me extend my rearch. I do plan on giving it a try. :) Thanks for your advice.
