your words might be right, if our meta contain any heavy armored targets, when long range ap will really matter over normal. But, overwhelming amount shortrange infiltrators with AP makes TAG extinct. You also miss few points Swiss can prone and Cautions. Swiss cost as half of the Cutter (50 points) and 2/3 of Uhlan (30 points), so orders and specialist are pretty much covered. (and btw, wip 10 spec, well thats funny) Yeah, he will. In 8 inches in cover with bs 9 single shot he will. And even if he will hit and kill FT - he lost his TO. Libertos Freedom Fighters - Submachine Gun vs. Cutters - MULTI HMG (Anti-Materiel Mode) Active Player (No Surprise BTW) 39.09% Libertos Freedom Fighters inflicts 1 or more wounds on Cutters (2 STR) 7.66% Libertos Freedom Fighters inflicts 2 or more wounds on Cutters (1 STR) 0.57% Libertos Freedom Fighters inflicts 3 or more wounds on Cutters (Unconscious) Failures 37.63% Neither player succeeds Reactive Player (With TO, no Cover) 23.28% Cutters inflicts 1 or more wounds on Libertos Freedom Fighters (Unconscious) 18.01% Cutters inflicts 2 or more wounds on Libertos Freedom Fighters (Dead) 8 point merc (non mimetic version) will remove him from the field. This is the main problem of TAGs, everything can be killed. Once revealed - cutter is the target. With right tool in right hands - there are too many stuff that will kill him. That why Swiss more viable now. If you lost swiss - you lost fifth part of you army. With Cutter- it more than third part. Active Player (No surprise) 29.68% Libertos Freedom Fighters inflicts 1 or more wounds on Swiss Guard (1 W) 5.18% Libertos Freedom Fighters inflicts 2 or more wounds on Swiss Guard (Unconscious) 0.39% Libertos Freedom Fighters inflicts 3 or more wounds on Swiss Guard (Dead) Failures 47.81% Neither player succeeds Reactive Player (With TO, no cover) 22.51% Swiss Guard inflicts 1 or more wounds on Libertos Freedom Fighters (Unconscious) And swiss much more reliable at short range. You also forget to mention, that by beeing s2 non rem, wounded swiss will hide and wait for hist turn with ease. Cutter will probably stay in place and wait for more shots to come. In pure tactic, Swiss much more flexible unit than Cutter. In compare to Uhlan, Uhlan have some advantage, but you can just buy few orders or spec for 30 points and cover them.
I think a lot is going to change in N4, with possible changes in mind, I’m trying to format my thinking less into individual wants and more into thematic strokes. When I think about Panoceania, I think of strong shooting and TAGs. I have hope that TAGs will get a more in-depth review for the next edition, because the idea that they won’t breaks my heart haha. I think the most successful TAGs in the faction are the ones with the strongest defined roles, the Jotum being a tank and threatening ARO piece, the Squalo being an artillery piece and scary AROs, and the Cutter having a Multi-HMG capable of surprise shot and have hidden deployment makes it worthy of consideration depending on your meta. Those that struggle must compete with a variety of competent HI with similar firepower, and BS stats as high as other faction TAGs for a much lower cost, making TAGs difficult to justify given their difficulty in use and challenges earning value. I also play Nomads, and I think that CB did a fantastic job of defining their play space and utilizing it in creative and impactful ways to play during the game. Panoceania seems like it has more stipulations in place in their design philosophy than other factions, and I think they often get lost in having basic raw stats. This is fine for some units, but the stats are not always high enough to get around the lack of special rules and generally low WIP in the faction, especially on specialist units. And it can be boring to play. I’d like the specialists to spend less time in the shooting range and more time in their respective labs and workshops (I’ll take BS 11 on my Machinist for WIP 13). Being the strong shooting faction is all well and good, but I don’t think so many pieces have to revolve around the idea, I’d like to see more flexibility in CB’s design choices with Panoceania in the next edition, similar to how Nomads were handled throughout N3.
That was always the PanO problem (and the source of Bostria's (in)famous "PanO is a mistake" comment). The faction was defined by high BS, and little else (TAGs are not easy to use, and while I don't agree with Ghost_from_warp's conclusions, he outlined the problem pretty well). But last year brought changes - MO became much more interesting (if still lagging behind more flexible sectorials), and VIRD was a very refreshing take on the faction, keeping its strenghts, but introducing new things to the mix. Same goes for Bolt rework. It took CB a long time - we were asking for it from the beginning - but the effect was very nice. I'm assuming we'll be seeing more of that.
Well if you so easily misinterpret (at least) attempt to be reasonable and tongue-in-check with intentional bothering of others then well I won't try that futile attempts in future.
What is (imho) most frustrating is fact that "Bolts rework" was neither extensive nor complicated. Showing that the thing could be done long time ago. But hey, players are bad rules designers etc.
... Well... where to start? I didn't write cautious movement and Prone because those are obvious pros for the Swiss. In the same time, until dead, a TAG provide total cover et block LoF so it can passively cover the path of the Machinist/Monstrucker/Palbot running at it in order to repair it. On the other hand, a Cutter is still a target a Monk attacks with some sweat because the target is hard to wound and a failure often means the end of the WB (yes 5 points but how many orders to reach a Cutter deep in the opposite DZ?). I won't say the Cutter is a CC monster but it can do the trick against an AHD infiltrator between surprise attack and its CC of 18. Not great but acceptable (and better than a Swiss shooting him at close range). WIP 10 is enough when your best shooting machine is roaming on the table. How many orders will you use to just move your specialist from the deep of your DZ to reach the consoles in the midfield? That's orders your Cutter has already used for moving and shooting and is now just in contact. Even if you need 3 orders to get the objective, that's what you would need if you were on the starting blocks with your Auxilia or Tech Bee and would have a straight road to it. And not failing the first attempt. So, all in all, I think the order economy counterbalances well the hike in cost. Not mentionning that Cutter has Aquatic Terrain, which the Swiss doesn't (ie: I largely prefer a Cutter for Rescue to a Swiss Guard). Then: at which moment you thought that a TAG only equiped with a MULTI HMG is good at 8" when not in suppressive fire? At which moment you found yourself in such situation when you play your TAG as it should be played? The purpose of a Cutter is to have a ARO behaviour of a Hexa Sniper but with a better aim and way more punch so you can send a HI like a Wu Ming straight unconscious with your first round. If you don't see a situation like this, keep your Cutter in HD and reveal it in active turn. The Cutter is fearsome because it is no joke at long range and if the table helps it (ie: not terrible), there are more than one spot from where it can show up and find total cover if it needs to fail its guts roll. To add to this, your example just show that you don't know how to use a MULTI HMG: in a FtF against most of the units with Dogged or NWI or 2+ W/STR or a Medic/Engineer close by, you shoot Stun ammos just to force them to stop making attack attempts. You'll have orders to deal with them with better odds during your turn. Such an example implies two situations: - Your opponent outplayed you because he is a way better player and you had little odds to win at the first place - You don't know how to play a TAG and you put your Cutter in a situation where it shouldn't have been to start with. @daboarder's Primer is just the Bible for any player wanting to get their hands on TAGs on the theory. But mastering how to play a TAG is a long way full of frustration at start because they have weaknesses in the scale of their strengths. And it's easy to screw up if you just forget one of the basic rules of their gameplay. But if you play them as they should, they are just one of the most powerful solopieces you can have. If you play on tables that don't allow for a TAG to be playable, there is no reason to play it, of course. But, in this case, do something with your table setup. It looks like someone saying HMG is bad because he/she plays on tables where LoF don't exceed 16" long. Yes, Swiss HMG is easy to play, easy to hide but also easier to deal with and not very versatile. You don't need to put unconscious a Swiss to force him to duck in cover, just winning the FtF enough time to see him fail his guts roll. Uhlan need a little help with his Feuerbach at the moment. Too hard to compete the Cutter on the antitank part while it should. Making the Feuerbach a twinlinked one instead should fix it. Anyway, I won't fight much more on this topic. I just find that this kind of exchange tiring and endless because there is always somebody claiming they are bad because they don't know how to play them from the first place. I don't count the times I've stomped people claiming TAGs are bad (and sometimes better players than me) with my own TAGs and I'll continue to do it.
Against Cutter in superposition between deep in deployment and in midfield - no wb can stand, yeah. Since i successfully play with Squalo for 2 yeras, I guess i can control TAGs pretty well. If you shoot NWI models with Stun instead os Shock, well, i have a news for you. and to break down your point even more Both in cover, no surprise, ap burst Cutters - MULTI HMG vs. Posthumans Proxy Mk.4 - Heavy Rocket Launcher Active Player 79.72% Cutters inflicts 1 or more wounds on Posthumans Proxy Mk.4 (1 W) 45.24% Cutters inflicts 2 or more wounds on Posthumans Proxy Mk.4 (Unconscious) 14.56% Cutters inflicts 3 or more wounds on Posthumans Proxy Mk.4 (Dead) Failures 15.97% Neither player succeeds Reactive Player 4.31% Posthumans Proxy Mk.4 inflicts 1 or more wounds on Cutters (2 STR) 1.29% Posthumans Proxy Mk.4 inflicts 2 or more wounds on Cutters (1 STR) 0.39% Posthumans Proxy Mk.4 inflicts 3 or more wounds on Cutters (Unconscious) 0.12% Posthumans Proxy Mk.4 inflicts 4 or more wounds on Cutters (Unconscious 2) 0.03% Posthumans Proxy Mk.4 inflicts 5 or more wounds on Cutters (Dead) Same, but with stun Active Player 40.12% Cutters hits Posthumans Proxy Mk.4 (Stunned) Failures 51.75% Neither player succeeds Reactive Player 8.12% Posthumans Proxy Mk.4 inflicts 1 or more wounds on Cutters (2 STR) 2.44% Posthumans Proxy Mk.4 inflicts 2 or more wounds on Cutters (1 STR) 0.73% Posthumans Proxy Mk.4 inflicts 3 or more wounds on Cutters (Unconscious) 0.22% Posthumans Proxy Mk.4 inflicts 4 or more wounds on Cutters (Unconscious 2) 0.07% Posthumans Proxy Mk.4 inflicts 5 or more wounds on Cutters (Dead) Unfortunately, chance to get hit and loss you TO is not included in this calculator. But numbers pretty much obvious. Shoot 2w model in active turn with stun instead of ap, just stupid. But to asume that you talk about ARO, shoot with stun against 2w model is basic knowledge. The only way you can break my 10 years experience, is by direct challenge on tournament or casual play. You have your arguments, i have mine. If you gonna counter my statement by classic ( to be honest, i do it my self periodically and i should never do it again EVER) "you just dont know how to play". I would like to ask you to do not waste your time. Is anyone from your meta will be at kraken master? I'am interested, will CB allow me to challenge him for first round
Since we definitely won't be getting Svalarheima before N4, what do you guys think PanO will receive in that sectorial?
It's so hard to tell at this point. We've heard time and time again that Sval, along with White Banner, will either drop with N4 or shortly there after. It's just so hard to imagine we'll be getting ANOTHER PanO sectorial and ANOTHER YJ sectorial in the span of like 2 years when some armies have just been left in the dark. I wouldn't be upset if we did though. I would imagine they would include in the Operations box a new unit or two to showcase a new mechanic, a changed mechanic, or new rules entirely. It's totally up in the air what those things might be.
All TAGs require close range point defense. This is nothing new. If your Cutter is getting engaged within 8 inches by CC or AP, and is sitting there unsupported, you're playing badly. That's not the fault of the Cutter. Hidden Deployment and TO is already a much better tool for survival than a Heavy Flamethrower.
I still shoot EXP there pretty often depending on the target. I'd rather have a unit dead than able to shoot me again next turn. Did e-peen measuring time start without me?
Hidden deployment is a major advantage. I had a game recently where an opponent managed to get a Sphinx into by deployment zone. It completely took me by surprise, but I resisted the urge to reveal my Cutter. My fusiliers and machinist miraculously dodged almost every flamethrower headed my way, and the Cutter was completely safe once the smoke cleared and my turn began. If I had a Dragao, for example, it would've just been a flame-off, and it could've gone either way. The Cutter is the only TAG that could get out of that situation with no worries whatsoever.
You pla VIRD, you already buy Cutter for 120 points. To realize, that he have no And now you have to spend even more for his defense, to cover your Cutter (asume that you alredy reveal it and you to deal some damage with limited amount of orders you because you spent 3rd of your points on one multi hmg) I can name you a lot of infiltrators and warbands with all types of smoke you can imagine, who will spend not so many (which they have a lot, since they dont pay 120 points for one multi hmg) orders to trespass your defense and shoot your beloved tag with a stupid flamethrower, ap smg or cc attack. I understand, that by idea, Cutter is Ultimate long range killing machine. If we play some 72X48 table with wide roads between buildings - ok. But we fight in relative close quarters. There are no way you can exclude getting your tag in close range combat. There are always a way for some chicky little bastard to sneak in to range, cause again, thx to not buying high cost tag, opponent have wider range of tools to counter your defense without engaging Cutter directly. And this is another point. Even with effective use of Cutter, you can't cover everything with him (unless you have seemingly empty table, when you unit in one position can cover every way to enter you deployment, in that case, you meta will a lot different than casual European and WAY far from American one). And, by obvious reason, rest of you army will be weaker that for someone with Swiss Guard, since he have more point for it. You cant just stay here and tell "If you play well, you will never be outranged, outmaneuvered or outgunned". This is not how it works. TAGs need buff, overall statistic show it. We can argue about it as long we would like, but statistic are simple. 3 seasons in a row, TAGs receive some kind of small buff to push them in to a game. TAGLINE was kind of desperate one. I will not be surprised, when season 11 will add even more. No, he is not, the only reason, why you was in this situation, is lack of other defense units and tradable units to waste his orders, cause you pay for Cutter so much points. The only reason, why Spinx get to you deployment is amount of points you spend on Cutter. One well placed Jammer and few Hellots and Flash bots will not stop sphinx, but will cut enough of his orders, so he would not harm your TAG.
You specifically misquoted me here. What I actually said was: "The Cutter is the only TAG that could get out of that situation with no worries whatsoever" I did have Helots and Jammers, but the Sphinx has TO. The Helots failed their discover rolls, so the Sphinx got past. Sometimes the best plans can go awry. The Cutter's Hidden Deployment ensures that you have a BS 15 powerhouse still around by the time you get to play your first turn.
It's called "playing the game." You pick the Cutter for missions where a TAG is useful, then you build a list to support the TAG, then try to use the TAG well. You can throw up any wall of text you like, but you're basically trying to fabricate variables to fit your point. We see that a lot on the forums these days... Players that want to argue and object, and not players who want to play the game. Try playing the game. You start with a Cutter, you buy a Zulu Cobra Sensor and a Zulu Cobra Killer Hacker to support it, then you buy your Core link team for Orders. These aren't bad units... These are units that any VIRD list will probably include anyway. This leaves you with some additional points for Engineer/Doctor/Helots/Flash Pulse or whatever cheap support you want. Then you play the game and try to win. Acting like warbands magically appear next to your TAG, magically killing it, and magically making you lose... That isn't playing the game. It's whining on the internet. Play the game. Don't whine on the internet. TAGs aren't perfect, and they probably need help. But don't confuse bad play with the TAG being deficient. Saying that a Cutter in VIRD has to worry about a smoke warband already shows me a big problem in your argument.
@Ghost_from_warp: If it's your thing to just turn anything I say into dumb things, go on, be my guest. I won't go in a fight to know who has the biggest stick. There is nobody from my meta in the kraken this year but there was Marduck last year who won the Interplanetario in 2017. Probably next year, if my brother finds the motivation to train for the satellite this time.
This is you joice, i always think that 3-4 games is better than yeling "you are wrong" on forum Yeah, i beat him in 2018 IP, nice guy, he still play tohaa? Will find great joy to play against him or visit your satellite, if it's reachable from russia xD
I agree that TAGs need something to protect them in CC and from Hackers. My regular opponent is fucking surgical with Morlocks and getting smoked out and chopped to bits is pretty high on my frustration list. Not to say they should be immune but if I'm wailing on your car with a sledgehammer you would simply drive over me. The idea that TAGs should carry some kind of "hacking program" for defense is a good one. Not anything lethal, just some kind of consequences for the hacker if the TAG wins the roll. Like Stunned or Blackout for a turn or something.
I mean logically, every PanO TAG should have some type of defense against possession, or hacking in general. You would never willingly bring a weapon or piece of equipment into battle knowing that the enemy can just take it over or easily shut it down at any moment. For christ sake, you have the technology to do it yourself, you think you would be able to retro engineer a defense out of it and apply it to your TAGs. But obviously this wouldn't make for a very fair, or fun game. I agree with Ghost_from_warp to a degree – the fact that a TAG can pretty much be killed by anything – especially by a 5 point war band makes them such a gigantic risk, proper support or not. If this remains to be the case in N4, there needs to be a real incentive to bring a TAG instead of just "BIG HMG". They need to bring something to the table or do something that makes them the supremacy pieces they're supposed to be. Tac Awarness is a start, but starts to get a little muddy once you start considering things like Geckos as generating extra orders. I think I'm going to sit and think for a while – I flirted with the idea of making a huge post about my hopes and suggestions for N4 and I think I will.
