1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

[ISS] Hsien Haris attempt

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Knauf, Aug 3, 2019.

  1. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2018
    Messages:
    1,615
    Likes Received:
    2,290
    I've been looking into ISS recently and trying to figure out how to make this list work:

    Imperial Service
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]4
    SUN TZE Lieutenant (Advanced Command) Boarding Shotgun, 2 Nanopulsers, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 60)
    HSIEN MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, AP CCW. (0.5 | 60)
    ZHÀNYING (Fireteam: Haris, Sensor) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nimbus Grenades / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 27)
    ZHÀNYING Hacker (Hacking Device) Breaker Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 32)
    CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]3
    SOPHOTECT Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 31)
    DAKINI Tacbot HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 21)
    GARUDA Tacbot Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 28)

    4.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army



    The Hsien Haris is the center point of this list, with a strong midfield presence, hacking defense and a specialist in tow. Between Sensor, MSV2, Smoke and Nimbus support, they should be able to tackle most obstacles. I prefer the Multi Rifle Loadout because I want to go in guns blazing and leave the long range engagements to the Dakinis. The Tinbot is also a nice defensive perk for both the Hacker and the Hsien.

    CG + Kuang Shi core fireteam for reliable smoke, order fuel and repeater coverage.

    The second CG is the Aleph auxiliary squad with a Sophotect for repairs and a Chaiyi for repeater coverage, so the Zhanying Hacker can put supportware on the HMG. The Garuda Spitfire will make for a nice flanking piece.

    Now I'm left with the problem of which LT to pick. I'm thinking Sun Tse BS for all the good he brings, but that would leave no room for anything else. Total Immunity nowadays makes him rather hard to shift as well. I'd like to get the Multi Rifle Loadout, but that would mean deleting the Chaiyi to free up points (and thus having to Biolocator one Kuang Shi every time to use supportware on the Dakini).

    A CG LT is competent but a sitting duck, so I'd probably have to get a CoC Pheasant as well. No sweet Strategos L3 in this case, though.

    Zhanying LT seems pointless compared to the CG and a Crane does not look too appealing outside fireteams either.

    What do you think?
     
    #1 Knauf, Aug 3, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2019
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    If you go first and they CT your second group you're screwed. If you go second you have almost no ARO presence, mines or speed bumps that aren't essential to your strategy.

    I suggest a few alterations with no solutions for how; trying to get the Hsien bumped to HMG, try get one more CG KSCD as replacement body, upgrade Sun to V2 Sniper (yeah, really, your list is starved for ranged options) and try fitting in a Yudbot or two for the Sophotect so she can keep her presence close to whoever needs it (such as Sun V2)
     
    Knauf likes this.
  3. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,803
    Likes Received:
    2,804
    Get the Hsien a real gun, drop Sun and get the rest of your AVA of Kuang Shi in group 2. I'd also drop the Dakini at least temporarily.

    Imperial Service
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]4
    HSIEN HMG, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 61)
    ZHÀNYING (Fireteam: Haris, Sensor) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nimbus Grenades / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 27)
    ZHÀNYING Hacker (Hacking Device) Breaker Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 32)
    CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]7 [​IMG]4
    SOPHOTECT Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 31)
    GARUDA Tacbot Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 28)
    CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)

    5.5 SWC | 253 Points

    Open in Infinity Army



    Now you have a few options. 47 points leaves you room for a Pheasant CoC to go up to the Hsien lt if you want (meh) or you can make some swaps to get 2 Kanren, or you can get a cheap lt and some decoys, etc.

    I really wouldn't consider the Hsien Haris without the HMG. It's one of the punchiest combinations in the game (and comes with a high cost for a reason) so you want it to have the best weapon it can get. Group 2 KSCD Celestial Guard also means that you can smoke without using orders from your first group
     
    Knauf and Azuset like this.
  4. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Tbh I like your list for the Armory, I would swap the Chaiyi’s places with the Garuda though.

    Allow me to explain, your Garuda is something the oponent won’t likely expect.

    I would Most likely choose initative, deploy the Haris on the shortest way possible for the armory door, plant a D-Charge and blow it up (or use CC-Mode with the Hsien or second zhanying supporting her for B2 on 10s I think?)
    Get Nice and comfy inside the Armory, and If You can get Sun Tze in there as well go for it.

    That sounds really simple, what is not simple however is what to do when you get Counter-Deployed, Sun tze mitigates the risk of this a bit and helps giving you his order.

    So when you inevitably get Counter-Deployed, I would most likely, Use controlled Jump with the Hacker, and attempt to land at a middle ranged flank of his Deployment zone, and immediately go to town with him on every model I can get my Range bands on.

    However consider entering through a side if it’s feasible.

    Your other alternative is to mow down the opponent’s ARO pieces, like Mahtamori said Sun Tze Sniper could help you keep people out if you can get him into the list.

    Now That’s what I like about your List.

    However this Haris team can be quite fragile in the reactive turn to simple shooting and Templates, boarding Shotguns, Chain Rifles and so on...

    That’s why you need to alpha strike with your Garuda and get him on group 1!

    Edit:
    Sorry I thought you had a Rui Shi, but the advice for the Rui shi works for the Dakini HMG, buff him up for some shooting in your active turn and if you can, buff him up with Enhanced Reaction for the second turn.

    Also, welcome to the State Empire fellow Agent!
     
    Knauf likes this.
  5. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2018
    Messages:
    1,279
    Likes Received:
    1,935
    Here's a list I've used a bit for missions where you want the Hsien to be kicking down doors in the midfield and ruining days there. Works best in missions with expanded deployment zones.

    (sub hacker Zhanying for mad traps depending on the mission/opponent)


    ISS close operations
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]4
    HSIEN Lieutenant MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 60)
    ZHÀNYING (Fireteam: Haris, Sensor) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nimbus Grenades / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 27)
    ZHÀNYING Hacker (Hacking Device) Breaker Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 32)
    CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    GARUDA Tacbot Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 28)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]6
    CRANE IMPERIAL AGENT (X Visor) Spitfire, 2 Nanopulsers / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 54)
    CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13)
    CELESTIAL GUARD (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    CELESTIAL GUARD Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
    XI ZHUANG Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, MadTraps / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20)
    CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

    5.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army


    The important thing to remember about the MR Hsien haris is that it exists to make use out of the Zhanying. If you're not using their sensor/hacking/specialist/mad traps aggressively, then you absolutely are better off just using the HMG Hsien instead.
     
    smog, valukr, Knauf and 1 other person like this.
  6. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2018
    Messages:
    1,615
    Likes Received:
    2,290
    I didn't think the whole Hsien Haris + Crane Core is actually something you can pull off, but it looks awesome.
    Too bad the Zhanying Haris doesn't come with Mad Traps.
     
  7. valukr

    valukr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2019
    Messages:
    116
    Likes Received:
    119
    I have been running a Hsien in a harris for a while and this is what I have found.

    Experiences:

    -Initially i didn't know his role. I tried to do everything with him, he underwhelmed.
    -Being your Lt as well as your main attack piece is an unforgiving combination, you have to be careful.
    -You have to find value in the Zhangying. You must incorporate some avenue for effectiveness for them in your list
    - Furthermore, you have to decide if you take the hacker or the madtrap Zhangying. In my opinion that can have some bearing upon whether you take Hsien with Multi or HMG.
    -Rui Shi, Lu Duan and Dakini are all good synergy with the hacker thanks to supportware
    -Kuang Shi biolocators/LuDuan/RuiShi to help get supportware on Garuda
    -Kenran with minelayer(sniffers) is a good way to make use of the sensor of the Zhangying.
    -Deployment of smoke launcher within 16 inches of Hsien really important for order efficiency and his effectiveness. You wanna be able to shoot smoke on 14/17s straight away, not having to spend orders to get there.
    -ARM4 is nothing without cover.
    -Sophotects is hard to justify for 31 points on top of the harris - though I'd probably be in the minority here.

    Suggestions:

    Tool up and use the Hsien to break enemy ARO presence, limit his role to that in the initial turns, he is exceptional at that. Either by baiting a dodge ARO with madtraps/coordinated order against non-msv2 links. Against msv2 links apply Nimbus. (Can expand on both if required). Furthermore, this helps you not over rely or over expose on the Hsien.

    Build other attack pieces into your list, ideally mobile ones, because in theory the Hsien will eliminate any enemy ARO presence and allow for free reign of your attack pieces. Again, Dakinis, Lu Duans, Rui Shi, Husong(TRbots) are all fantastic.

    Example
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]3
    HSIEN HMG, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 61)
    ZHÀNYING (Fireteam: Haris, Sensor) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nimbus Grenades / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 27)
    ZHÀNYING (Sensor) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nimbus Grenades, MadTraps / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 28)
    CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13)
    CELESTIAL GUARD Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 21)
    CELESTIAL GUARD Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    LÙ DUĀN Mk12, Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5 [​IMG]1
    DAKINI Tacbot Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 15)
    DAKINI Tacbot HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 21)
    HÙSÒNG Yaókòng HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    WARCOR (Sixth Sense L1) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)
    CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)

    5.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    I made a quick list that demonstrates what I've mentioned. It is obviously quiet vulnerable to hackers, so you can decide how you deal with this. Either bait enemy hackers with your REMS and counter-strike with your ninja KHD or sensor them and take them out from range with Lu'Duan.
     
    Willen, zapp, Knauf and 2 others like this.
  8. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2018
    Messages:
    574
    Likes Received:
    231
    Please elaborate on this. How is the MR helping the Zhanying?
     
  9. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2018
    Messages:
    574
    Likes Received:
    231
    What are your favorite ways to find the value in the zhanying?
     
    #9 Azuset, Aug 6, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2019
  10. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2018
    Messages:
    1,279
    Likes Received:
    1,935
    By operating in the mid field, you can use the Zhanying to suss out enemy camo markers with sensor from outside LoS, use the hacker variant to press buttons and harass enemy HI, TAGs, and hackers in the midfield (you may only have a WIP13 regular device, but you've also got a tinbot B and sixth sense. You're a digital brick wall), or push forward with the madtraps variant of the haris to use them aggressively.

    If you're just using the haris for the +1 burst mod, you're wasting an enormous amount of points on what should be a Su-Jian. It's the same reason I don't really like the Hsien haris for the HMG variant, the Zhanying don't really get to do a whole lot.
     
    Willen, Azuset, Knauf and 1 other person like this.
  11. valukr

    valukr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2019
    Messages:
    116
    Likes Received:
    119
    Wholeheartedly agree with Weathercock.

    In regards to finding use for the Zhangying in the Harris. You are forced into the harris profile, and thus sensor. That is the first decision you have to make, how will you get value from the sensor? Via sniffers (Kenran/Chaiyi) or will you be pushing the harris into midfield?

    The real decision comes with the 2nd Zhangying - the two most commonly used load outs are the madtrap and the hacker. If you decide on the madtrap loadout - you can do the smoke/madtrap trick where you manipulate the ARO mechanic and force them to dodge unless they have msv2. Though, that is a lot of points for a one trick pony. Additionally you can perform a similar trick using a coordinated order and a holoecho from a kenran/luduan/sforza. Further what you could choose to do is use the madtraps in combination with the multirifle/deflector and push into the midfield - the deflector level 2, madtraps and possibly fairydust ought to ward off most hacking attempts.

    Alternatively you have the hacker, in which you have a specialist for the push into midfield, which is still a viable option for the MR/Tinbot2. However, I'd argue this profile is more suited to the Hsien HMG profile. In which you use it to clear the way from your own deployment/forward zone, thus enabling your army to push up and take the midfield. ISS being a faction with very limited forward deployment options, must rely on walking up the board, which means that being able to deal with ARO pieces is crucial - hence our access to Su-Jian, Dakinis/REMs Nimbus + Lunah/Pheasent MMLx - sidetracked. To get back to the hacker loadout, particularly its synergy with REMs which can be made into dangerous gunfighters via the supportware. Viewed in combination with their fast movement stats to offset the inherent ISS weakness. Lastly, in theory you can tie KuangShi into all this synergy with their walking repeaters to help boost Dakinis/Garudas and Husongs who've moved out of range. However, can you afford a Sophotect amongst all this business? I do not know
     
    Willen, Azuset, fatherboxx and 2 others like this.
  12. smog

    smog Well-Known Member
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2017
    Messages:
    211
    Likes Received:
    276
    This is a Good Post
     
  13. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2018
    Messages:
    5,929
    Likes Received:
    5,078
    Sorry my question is not about the Hsien, but how do you guys feel about a strait Zhanying Haris. While the HMG my not have MSV2 and such, it's half of the points and 1 SWC.
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    I find it to be a waste of resources, personally. The Zhanying NEEDs to have something capable of fighting efficiently to provide a small amount of extra diversity to, as on their own they have a lot of anti-synnergy and bloat.
     
    the huanglong likes this.
  15. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2018
    Messages:
    574
    Likes Received:
    231
    Thanks for explaining this. I have about 5 games in with the faction and am still learning all the little things that make it work.
     
  16. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2018
    Messages:
    574
    Likes Received:
    231
    @valukr what a great post. I am learning a lot. Thanks for this.

    I don't know what this tick is. How does it work?

    Same here. What is this trick all about?
     
  17. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,715
    Likes Received:
    6,472
    Fair warning though doing the madtrap thing is a bit of a dick move and heavily frowned upon in some groups. Definitely don't do it without talking it over with your opponents first.



    You use a coordinated order to attack with multiple models at the same time. It's essentially the same sequence of events as doing it with the Madtrap but your opponent has the ability to trade for an order generating model and the main shooter like the Hsien gets a big burst penalty. It's also costs a command token which is expensive and limits other options.

    Basically it's a more reasonable application of the trick rather than the cheesedick version with the madtrap.
     
  18. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2018
    Messages:
    574
    Likes Received:
    231
    I'm a new player. My meta is me and 2 other people now. I'm teaching them the game. Sooooo.... I don't have a pool of people to learn tactics from.

    Yup, I still don't get it. Are you saying you can coordinated order and attack with madtraps?

    It is within the rules to do this right?
     
    valukr likes this.
  19. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,715
    Likes Received:
    6,472
    You can only ARO against one target, and you have to declare your ARO the first time you are given the chance to. If you decide you don't do anything when given an ARO during an order you can't then decide to declare an ARO during the second half of an opponent's order.

    So the Hsien stands in smoke while the Madtraps move and trigger an ARO declaration on the first half of the order. Then the Hsien shoots the target in the face who cannot respond or shoot back with the second half of the order. The only thing the target can do is dodge unless they also have an MSV2 visor to see into the smoke. It's a cheesey and shitty thing to do to people and it breaks the core function of the game which is both players getting the choice to fight and trivialises destroying strong ARO pieces that can't possibly fight back which has major balance implications.

    To quote someone else on FB about the whole thing


    I would carefully consider whether it is what you ultimately want from the game before you look at doing this. At the very least from my opinion it will be nothing more than a bad crutch that will make you a sloppy player with bad habits and a lesser understanding of the game.
     
    Azuset, valukr and Sedral like this.
  20. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6,148
    Likes Received:
    9,666
    It's legal. It's also immensely frustrating to play against. So frustrating that it might cost you a player!

    What you do is set it up so that the target you are going to hammer sees the Madtrap or Coordinated model after the first order declaration, so they MUST declare an ARO at that point or lose it. Then your other model can act and get normal rolls against that target because the target already declared their ARO. Usual coordinated option is Hsien shooting through smoke, but a model with MadTraps can set up forced AROs. Get the model with Madtraps around behind the model you're going to hammer, but with a MadTrap still in their front arc. This forces the target to declare their ARO against the MadTrap instead of the model that is going to shoot.
     
    Azuset and Sedral like this.
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation