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Initial look on the current O-12 Units

Discussion in 'O-12' started by Wyrmnax, Jul 23, 2019.

  1. -Ghost-

    -Ghost- Shalashaska

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    Everyone is usually scared Viral. It's just not as scary to STR units. Especially with 3 BTS.
     
  2. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

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    3 BTS means jack if you are having to make 2 saves. Unless you have enough BTS to be making those saves on 4s or less, the fact that it is effectively DA ammo is very scary. DA is deceptively potent - if you need 5+ to make a save, it means you have 64% of chance of making both of them. If you need 6+, those chances fall down to 56%
     
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  3. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    Viral is super scary. The only real advantage that the Betatroopers have is having two unconscious states that viral can't ignore except by wounding the Beta 4 times. This is assuming you get the chance to repair the Beta as oppose to the viral troop just shooting again.
     
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  4. -Ghost-

    -Ghost- Shalashaska

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    3BTS makes the world of difference. Cover makes it 6. So most Viral Rifles are being saved on an 8.

    We're also talking about an engagement where a Mimetic construct loses a gunfight (of which it does extremely well) and failing 4 saves to be knocked dead. That in itself is extreme.

    What units that possess Viral weapons have MSV to even make use of it?

    I get it, Viral is dangerous. I just don't feel like it's a big worry to a unit like the Betatrooper. A difference of opinion.
     
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  5. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    I... think you might not be quite across modern Makaul useage. There are some good threads in the tohaa forum about it. Look for anything by a poster called @borings if you want somewhere good to start.

    For myself, Varangians hit the table the first time yesterday and will go down again tomorrow. They're serviceable, but I can already see the balance points on them. Berserk is a much less attractive skill on a 12pt regular model than it is on a 5-6pt irregular, and BS10 buts a solid handbrake on the potential of their guns.

    Overall I like their Loadout and I'll certainly take them over e.g. Kappas, and I can see the upgrade to the 13pt profile for offensive use as being pretty interesting. They're good troops. But they've been very carefully kept from straying over the line into revolting.
     
  6. -Ghost-

    -Ghost- Shalashaska

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    Other than Eclipse tossing, triad filler, close quarters deterrent, and awesome close combat skills what am I missing? There isn't much to them. You either play them as heat seeking missiles or put them in a triad to provide eclipse protection from visors or burn out enemies. Anything else gets shanked with a Viral CC weapon with the benefits of i-Kohl.

    If 0-12 had the equivalent of Gals it'd be ridiculous. We both know that. That being said, VG are a blessing in an army where the average pts cost of a trooper is sitting in the 20s.
     
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  7. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    Ok so I meant to come back to this earlier, but it was a day of chores.

    @-Ghost- my position on Makauls was mostly a response to the statement that Varangians are 'stupid good'. I think you've actually highlighted the strengths of Makauls pretty well, although I'd add that they have two major plays they can make reliably that are augmented by synergies in their faction:
    • linked HFTs through nimbus plus or stratuscloud zones to hit clumped teams and especially engage links, and
    • probably the game's most reliable melee kill potential for cost thanks to combination of eclipse and cheap mixed stealth/non-stealth links - a makaul (or a pair of makauls alongside some other model) can force a change facing dodge against a model without sixth sense on a penalty of -6 or -9, and then follow up with a melee attack with an incredibly dangerous weapon (potentially DAM17 or even 18 DA or Viral).
    In contrast, Varangians are: good, and reliable, and enable Epsilon smoke shooting. They're a great unit, sitting somewhere on the continuum between jaguars and krakots and very worthwhile to take three or four of in a list. There's really nothing more I could ask of them, but I can also see where they've been carefully kept in check by the designers. Berserk with just an AP CCW is a slightly unattractive melee skill on a model that's both a little expensive for a warband and forms the basis of your order pool, and BS10 keeps their powerful mixed template/BS weapon options from becoming overbearing. But three of their four profiles are super interesting and viable, and they're a great fit for the meat-and-potatoes needs of O-12.

    They're a good unit. But they're not transformationally good.
     
  8. -Ghost-

    -Ghost- Shalashaska

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    That's a fair point. When I say they're stupid good I mean they're exactly what this army needed in terms of a Warband. If 0-12 had Shaolins or Gals it would be broken. You're right that their cost keeps them in check. I really like their toolbox kit. Having AP CCW is not as big of a detriment to me since a crit is a crit (40% is kind of a big deal).
     
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  9. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    I think we're in accord :)
     
  10. -Ghost-

    -Ghost- Shalashaska

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    [​IMG]
     
  11. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Yup, but StarCo is NA2... so it's hard to pin as a faction in general instead of one faction per NA2 sectorial (plus, with the Extra Soldiers of Fortune, everyone has access to regular smoke and hacker plus, at the very least). Anyway, if I were to count sectorials separated from vanillas, Bakunin would need to be added too, etc etc (so it becomes more of a "sectorials with those three instead of vanillas"). 5/8 vanillas (not counting NA2), or 5/34 (aprox) sectorials.

    Personally, I see her as a discount Achilles... but yeah, it's an slightly more expensive Perseus (funnily enough, Teucer increased his cost in 4 points with the +Climbing Plus, while Hyppolita pays 4 points for +1 kinematics, option of Burst 2 in melee, +1 dice of damage in melee -from DA to EXP-, -1 pistol but + flash pulse, improve smoke to Eclipse, +1 CC, +1PH, +1WP, +1 ARM, +3 BTS, and from Frenzy to basic Impetuous)...

    Yes, and going from the Frenzy of the Jaguars to the basic Impetuous gives them +1CC, -1CD, +1PH, +1WP, +1ARM, and Berserker allows to Charge, so a Varagian threatens his whole Zone of Control as long as he can cross in his active turn.
    Plus, by having an AP melee weapon, they can threaten big enemy guns (like a frigging TAG for example) for the same cost the Jaguar with E/M, and they have Dogged... So they can throw a Smoke, then Charge at the enemy TAG and do 1-2 Berserker hits to the TAG with damage 14 against half armor (5 in a Jotum means 60% of wounding... if it's not directly a crit).

    I's fully expect to see them able to link in a Fireteam Core/Haris in the future... I would love for that to be with Valkyrie, for 150% viking epicness...
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Assault requires LOF. Not saying anyone claimed otherwise, but important to remember when smoke is involved.
     
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  13. MrNailbrain

    MrNailbrain Relentless Optimist

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    Question: do we not get the Deva AHD+Icebreaker profile? PanO has access to Devas in NCA and gets the cool profile, but apparently O12 doesn’t? At least it’s not in Army. I’ll check the PDF...

    Edit: it’s not in the PDF either. I love using that profile in NCA and was really hoping we’d have access to it.
     
  14. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    I am also surprised that O-12 doesn't get that one.

    But I'm so glad that they don't get the Lt's I'm willing to overlook it.
     
  15. MrNailbrain

    MrNailbrain Relentless Optimist

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    On the topic of LTs I’m actually pretty surprised on the lack of variety and lack of LT2 skills. Kappa for 1swc, Alpha as the obvious choice, Gamma, Omega and Zeta as aggressive choices. I would have loved to see a LT2 Omega as a counterpart to the Alpha, and some NCO skills as well.
     
  16. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    I think that's a deliberate choice.

    And it's one of the things which is making O-12 feel a lot like PanOceania.
     
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  17. Brother Smoke

    Brother Smoke Bureau Trimurti Representative

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    I'm pretty happy with the Alpha as a LT choice, put him prone on a small building with railings and dare anyone to come close
    -Burst 3 shotgun
    -Burst 2 Nanopulser
    -Effective CC24 with burst 2 and DAM15
    -Biometric visor for those pesky impersonators

    well worth the price IMO, He is the LT and I don't care who knows
     
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  18. MrNailbrain

    MrNailbrain Relentless Optimist

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    A super jumping Hollowmen sees your call and lays his cards down. That big ol S4 base makes a lot of angles from any sort of height advantage. I don’t think “prone on a building” is the defensive tech for him”.
     
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  19. Brother Smoke

    Brother Smoke Bureau Trimurti Representative

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    I'll just put him on HIGHER BUILDING :wink:

    All joking aside, no plan is foolproof, but I'm willing to bet super-jumping dudes are a pretty niche issue and take a lot of risks to attempt a LT kill, so I'm comfortable with that
     
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  20. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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